ComplaintsforSanders & Johnson, Inc.

• Initial Complaint

  11/15/2023

  Complaint Type:

  Customer Service Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  We hired Sanders and Johnson to come evaluate two locations on our radiant floor heating system that would not turn off. On 18 Apr, we received an estimate to replace 2 of 7 zone valves, with additional estimates to include preventative, optional work. We opted for the most extensive repair, to include preventative maintenance (replace all 7 zone valves, Taco pump, and fill valve. On 25 Apr 2023, Sanders and Johnson sent a technician (****) who spend the entire day working on our system. At the end of the day, he said he needed help and would be back the next day with his Operations Manager (****). On 26 Apr, **** and **** spent the entire day working on the system. During this time period, I spoke with them and observed them often. They told me they replaced the Taco pump three times. One time I observed steam in the room next to the system, and they said the circuit board had just shorted out. They ran to the supply store to get a replacement. At the end of their two days of work, they had replaced 7 zone valves, the Taco pump (three times), and the circuit board (which coincidentally happened to fail while they were working on the system). After they left, we had no heat in our house. On 02 May I spoke with their receptionist who relayed our concern to ****. He told us the boiler wasn't piped properly, and we could not set the thermostat above 67 degrees. We have used this system for 8 years without any problems until they worked on it. Now we had no heat in our house at all. Over the next 2 months I sent 5 emails and multiple phone calls which all went unanswered. Finally, I threatened to pursue "other options" and they sent out **** who looked at the system and promised to be back within a week. No one ever came back. Two more emails and we got zero response. We hired another plumber on 14 Sep who replaced the Taco pump and adjusted the bypass ball valve (and replaced an unrelated coin vent) all for $980.00. System works perfectly now.

  

  Business response

  12/02/2023

  The customer's statements are inaccurate and do not include all of the pertinent details.  First, the technicians did not replace the Taco pump three times.  One pump was replaced once, although the replacement pump had a problem new out of the box so that had to be addressed.  Our technicians determined during diagnosis and testing that the control board was dropping voltage to the pump referenced above and had likely been doing so for a while, which of course was affecting the performance of the pump.  This caused the pump to frequently start and stop in short cycles,creating more wear and tear on the pump than it was designed to carry.  In addition, the customer's boiler system was never piped correctly from the start by whoever installed it (not our company)which among other things had allowed air in the system.  With air in the system you can't get good flow or any flow at all which adds additional strain onto the pump and damaged it.  Once the pump was unable to flow water the boiler of course overheated.  The steam the homeowner observed was because of the water present on top of the heat exchanger when this happened.  To be clear, the control board did not produce the steam. 
  
  We find it difficult to believe the boiler system had worked great for the past 8 years.  It might have functioned, but it certainly did not function correctly.  In fact the homeowner made a comment to one of our technicians that the system had never been the same after another company worked on it before us.  There is no manifold and no purge valves.  As a result the majority of our time spent at the home was focused on bleeding air out of the system.  This is a direct consequence of the system never being piped properly from the start.  Also, our notes indicate part of the system was piped using Kitec that is now coming apart and contaminating the system with debris.  That debris by the way will get stuck in the pumps.  (Kitec is a type of tubing that was subject to a class-action lawsuit years ago because of things like this.  It hasn't been allowed in construction for many years.)  **** presented the homeowner with a description of what it would take to properly repipe the system but ****'s notes in our CRM clearly state the "customer not interested" in the repipe.  Furthermore he noted the expansion tanks were the incorrect type for their system which is going to affect the volumetric flow rate.
  
  The homeowner states another plumber replaced a Taco pump.  The homeowner's system has multiple Taco pumps but he failed to indicate which one the plumber replaced.  The homeowner also failed to mention who they spoke with at our company.  Without that information it is almost impossible to track down any of the homeowner's communications with our staff.
  
  Finally we will mention the homeowner made a comment to one of our technicians about how he (the homeowner) was previously in the Marines,and that if things had been different he would have hit someone in the face, or the head, or something to that effect.  We were not able to consult tonight with that technician to recall the exact details of what was said, but whatever it was, the technician interpreted it as a threat.  As a result we will not serve this customer again.  There will be no adjustment to his bill as our repairs were appropriate and the customer declined the additional repair needed to bring their boiler system to spec.

   

  Customer response

  12/13/2023

   
  Complaint: 20875952
  
  I am rejecting this response because:

  I am flabbergasted at the response from Sanders and Johnson.  The entirety of our complaint was based on the fact that after they serviced our system, we had no heat and they then failed to respond to our many calls and emails.  They did not address this in their response.

  
  In their response they state, The homeowner also failed to mention who they spoke with at our company. Without that information it is almost impossible to track down any of the homeowners communications with our staff. I included copies of 7 emails sent to the company.  Five were sent to ******************************* who would not give me ***** email but said she would forward them.  The last two were sent to ******************************* and *********************, as we were able to eventually acquire a second company email address.  All phone calls were answered by ******************************* (front desk Admin person).

  
  There are many technical details in the response from Sanders and Johnson but nothing that addressed our primary complaint of no heat.  The bottom line is, we had a system that provided heat but certain valves would not turn off.  After they left, we had no heat.  They did not respond appropriately and we were forced to turn to another company to correct the issue.

  
  Addressing three specific items: 
  1).  They stated, the technicians did not replace the Taco pump three times.  As we are not plumbers, we can only state what we were told by the technician who said something like, this is the third one, I hope it works.  This led us to believe they had tried twice before.
  2).  They stated,customer not interested (in Kitec plumbing repipe).  In 2 of my 7 emails (and notes from one phone call), I specifically ask the company about KITEC and what they recommended.  They never responded.
  3)  The statement that my husband would have, hit someone in the face, or the head, or something to that effect is an outright lie and complete slander.  I find this example of this companys low character,to be an even worse violation than their terrible work ethic. 

  
  I have never in my 55+ years ever written a complaint to the BBB.  ************ charged us $5,741.10 to repair a working system, left us with no heat, and then did not respond to our emails or phone calls.  I request the BBB formally places this complaint on their website and adjust their rating appropriately.
  
  Sincerely,
  
  **** And **** Board

• Initial Complaint

  07/03/2023

  Complaint Type:

  Service or Repair Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  Please see the attachments.

  Customer response

  07/06/2023

  Dear BBB,

  
  I realize that my complaint was incomplete due to some incomplete attachments. The complete attachments are included with this email. Please share these with the business. 

  
  Kind regards,

  
  -*************************

  

  Business response

  07/17/2023

  This individual's facts are wrong and we vehemently deny his allegations.  He falsely describes the full nature and character of the work that was performed, and incorrectly states which company performed the work and our companys obligations to him relative to that work.  Our work was not defective and did not cause any damage. As an attorney, this individual is well aware that his statements are false.

  Customer response

  07/17/2023

   
  Complaint: 20271722
  
  I am rejecting this response because:

  Sanders & Johnson has not provided any information or evidence to refute any of the statements made in the complaint. If the company has such information or evidence, it should provide it. Otherwise, I rest on my truthful statement of the facts as they occurred and have been accurately described in the complaint.

  Sincerely,
  
  *************************

  Customer response

  08/09/2023

  Please see the 4 attachments.

  Kind regards, 

  -Ephraim 

  Customer response

  08/15/2023

  August 15, 2023
  
  Dear BBB,
  
  You have requested a summary of the issues I am having and my desired resolution. For context, I previously provided a short statement of my requested resolution along with a detailed 11-paragraph factual description of the issues I have had with this vendor, Sanders & ******. Further, I provided my correspondence history with the vendor, which history forms the basis for several of my factual statements. In response, the vendor provided a general denial and failed to address even one of the facts I recited. I encourage you to carefully review my prior attachments. For your convenience, below, I will provide a shortened summary:
  
  I believe that this vendor has engaged in deceptive trade practices and negligent professional service. Regarding deceptive trade practices, I believe this vendor provided a false report that heat exchangers on our furnaces were cracked and the furnaces needed to be replaced. We had a second HVAC professional later diagnose one of these furnaces and he opined that there were no cracks in the heat exchanger. We did not have him diagnose the others, but we did contact the furnace manufacturer,Trane, and ***** reported that the heat exchangers were all still under warranty and, if they were cracked, could be replaced at a fraction of the cost of new furnaces. I believe that Sanders & Johnson falsely reported that the furnaces needed to be replaced with the improper intent of making money on a job that was not necessary.
  
  Regarding negligent service, Sanders &Johnson performed repair work on a boiler that its predecessor, Day Plumbing & Heating, had installed approximately one year earlier. The repair work not only failed to fix the boiler, but allowed the boiler to run at excessive temperatures, overheating and/or over-pressurizing the water, which we believe caused the temperature & pressure release valve on the downstream hot water storage tank to fail. The ** valve failure caused flooding in our basement and required us to replace the ** valve.
  
  While Sanders & Johnson has disclaimed any liability for the work performed by Day Plumbing, this disclaimer is irrelevant for two reasons. First, we are not complaining about work performed by Day Plumbing; rather, we are complaining very directly about work performed by Sanders & Johnson. It was their technicians (plural) who had worked on the boiler just prior to the boiler overheating and causing damage to the ** valve and to our basement. Second, as is clear from the correspondence history that I provided, Sanders & ****** was, as of the date of their service on our boiler, still holding itself out as Day Plumbing & Heating. I believe it is further evidence of deceptive trade practices by this vendor to hold itself out as Day Plumbing & Heating while at the same time disclaiming responsibility for the work of Day Plumbing & Heating.
  
  To resolve my complaint, I request the following:
  
  1. Sanders & ****** should reimburse me $500.00 for the cost of replacing the failed ** valve and repairing the damage caused by the flood in the basement; and
  2. Sanders & ****** should cease using the Day Plumbing & Heating name and logo.
  
  For the sake of future customers, Sanders & Johnson should also be cautioned to avoid any form of deceptive trade practice, such as recommending unwarranted furnace replacements.
  
  Kind regards,
  
  *************************

  

  Business response

  09/18/2023

  Hello ******* - I left you a voicemail last week, sent you an email today, and tried calling a couple of times, but so far have not heard from you.  Please contact me regarding this matter as there are legal considerations which prevent me from saying much more than what I've already said in my previous response.  You can reach me on our main office line at ************.  Our office hours are 8 a.m. to 5 p.m Mountain Time.  When you call, please identify yourself, ask for me by first and last name, and then let the operator know you are returning my call.  Several of my key staff members are out of the office this week so my schedule is stretched very thin while I backfill for them during their absences.  If I am not available please leave a number and a couple of days/times where I can reach you. 

  Thank you.

   

  

  Business response

  09/28/2023

  This homeowner has made a number of false and misleading statements about us, so we will set the record straight by first pointing out the most obvious fact of all which he avoids mentioning.  Sanders & Johnson is a 47 year old company with an excellent reputation, with customers who have been with us for decades, to the extent that children of the first generation of customers have now also become our customers.  This is nearly unheard of in ******.  There is no way we would see such loyalty in our customer base, let alone still be in business, after 47 years if we behaved in the manner this homeowner falsely accuses us of doing.
  
  Secondly, notice how many times this homeowner uses the phrase "I believe" and "we believe".  You have to ask yourself why would someone state everything as an opinion if they were so certain we acted inappropriately?  This particular homeowner is an attorney who lives in a ****** square foot residence worth millions of dollars and threatened to weaponize social media against us if we didn't accept ownership of his false allegations against us and he doesn't get his way.  He knows it becomes much more difficult for anyone he slanders to win a defamation case against him if he uses such language as "I believe" and "we believe".  His approach offers him a backdoor way to defame our brand while hiding behind the first amendment. 
  
  Thirdly, we do not flippantly report cracked heat exchangers.  In our company whenever a technician finds a cracked heat exchanger there is a review process which involves a manager.  We have pictures of the cracks inside this homeowner's heat exchanger.  Those cracks are big enough to drive a truck through them.  There is absolutely no doubt this homeowner has a cracked heat exchanger which could leak carbon monoxide.  It doesn't matter if another company has a different opinion, not all heating companies are created equal.  We have clear pictures which provide the basis for our determination. 
  
  Furthermore, this customer's consideration of replacing a cracked heat exchanger in a furnace as old as his demonstrates his lack of competency in our industry. You would be hard pressed to find an established,responsible, and reputable heating company in ****** that recommends this approach, no matter if the aged heat exchanger is under warranty or not. An analogy would be replacing the original transmission in a 17 year old car that already has ******* miles on it.  Yes you can do it, but why on earth would you?  Nobody with any common sense would suggest it.  Removing a heat exchanger can be a violent process that requires application of force.  Such an attempt could cause other aged components inside the furnace to break, which would certainly not be covered under warranty, and then ultimately cost the customer as much or more than simply replacing the entire unit.  This approach would be a disservice to the customer. 
  
  Fourthly, the only work we ever performed on the system in question was to remedy a defective wireless thermostat module that was backfeeding electrical current.  This backfeed caused a small transformer, a combustion blower, and a control board to fail.  All were replaced under warranty.  None of the work we did would have negatively impacted the T&P valve.  (It is called a T&P valve, not a TP valve.  TP is something you purchase in the paper goods aisle at the grocery store.)  We returned months later at the homeowner's request to observe a lockout fault at which point we adjusted a bypass valve to bring a high delta-T back in line.  ************** observed the system and noted the adjustment produced the desired result by returning the system to the set point.  And, just like before, this would not have caused the T&P to fail as the bypass adjustment lowered, not raised, the amount of heat.  
  
  Furthermore, the T&P valve is operated by a spring and thus it is not necessary to replace it if it only opens once or twice in its lifetime.  If the T&P ever does open the right thing to do is to figure out what caused the problem in the first place and address the root cause.  It sounds to us like the homeowner was unnecessarily sold a new T&P valve by the other heating company.  As for the supposed "flood" in his basement, which our work did not cause and could not have caused, the homeowner was notified in writing over a year prior that his floor drain was not functioning properly.  It appears he chose not to remedy the situation and thus the water had nowhere to go.
  
  In addition, we are aware of at least four different heating companies that have performed work on his system.  That means four different technicians, four different management teams, four different diagnostic approaches, and four different repair philosophies have all been applied to his equipment.  That's like having four different mechanics work on your car.  And let's not overlook the possibility also exists the homeowner himself has tinkered with his system as well.  If something goes wrong, how do you know who to blame?  It isn't always the fault of the person who most recently serviced the vehicle.  Sometimes it takes time for things to go wrong.  For example, the homeowner told our operations manager that he sets his incoming well pressure to 70 psi.  Conventional wisdom from those who have worked in the trades, unlike this homeowner, is a recommended range of 40 psi to 60 psi.  Anything higher can begin damaging fixtures and valves throughout the home.  It takes time for that to happen. 
  
  Finally, Sanders & Johnson and Day Plumbing merged together.  **************** has the explicit right to use both names and logos.  In addition, it would be an exercise in poor judgment for the organization to take ownership over all work performed prior to the merger.  This type of indemnification is common practice in mergers and our own attorneys utilize this method.  The homeowner is an attorney himself and is fully aware of how these things work yet tries to paint us as deceptive for doing it because he is angry we won't take responsibility for something which clearly is not our fault. 

  Customer response

  10/04/2023

  Please review the homeowner's attached point-by-point response to Sanders & Johnson. 

  Customer response

  10/04/2023

   
  Complaint: 20271722
  
  I am rejecting this response for the reasons provided in the attached Word file.
  
  Sincerely,
  
  *************************

  

  Business response

  11/13/2023

  This homeowner has falsely accused us of lying, he has falsely accused us of unethical practices, he has treated our staff rudely and disrespectfully, and he has threatened to *** us and implied litigation from almost the beginning.  He had plenty of opportunities to handle his concerns in a polite, respectful, and courteous manner but chose not to.  His latest response continues this trend and begs the question of why such behavior should be rewarded.  If this customer wants to see our pictures then he must first retract in writing everything he has said and written thus far, write a letter of apology to our staff for the way he treated them, and reimburse us for the time we have wasted in this ridiculous exchange. This is non-negotiable. Otherwise ************** needs to find another heating company. 

   

  Customer response

  11/15/2023

   
  Complaint: 20271722
  
  I am rejecting this response because:

  I maintain that Sanders & Johnson is an inscrupulous and/or incompetent business.The company appears not even to have read the homeowners complaint and further correspondence requested by the BBB, which correspondence contained evidence from an independent professional. Certainly, Sanders & Johnson has not responded with any information to contradict the homeowners complaint and evidence. It also seems not to appreciate a point that would be obvious to anyone who had read the complaint: the homeowner retained a new and better heating company long ago and has no need or desire for any services from Sanders & Johnson, ever.

  Sincerely,
  
  *************************

• Initial Complaint

  12/07/2022

  Complaint Type:

  Service or Repair Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  My gas furnace in my basement was working perfectly. It had not been cleaned and inspected recently, so in Oct, '22, I made an appointment with Sanders and Johnson to come to my house on Nov, 22, '22, to do a routine service. The technician, *****. He arrived, and proceeded to work on the furnace. He had it running for at least 40 minutes. It was getting pretty warm in my house, which he told me would happen, and I began to have a burnt smell in the house. The furnace shut off, and he was in the basement for some additional time. Then he came up and told me that it wasn't coming back on properly. He had to do some checking, and also talked to his supervisor, *****. They determined that the blower motor had failed, and that the furnace would not run. ***** admitted that the furnace had overheated. They later gave me an estimate of about $4000 to replace the blower motor and the transducer, which ***** said was about to fail. I talked to *****. He said that there is no way what ***** did could cause the blower motor to fail. ***** even suggested that it could have failed before ***** got there. I think that's nuts, because *****, I hope, would be able to tell right away if the blower motor wasn't working and stop the test. ***** tried to tell me that *****, standing next to the furnace, would not be able to tell that the blower motor wasn't working. I can tell when the blower motor is working, whether I'm next to the furnace, or up in my house somewhere else. After one night of cold, I called another company. They came out, and agreed that the motor had failed, and that the estimate was not unreasonable, but also said Sanders and Johnson should have accepted some responsibility. I decided to replace the furnace with the second company. I realize my furnace was 15 years old, and maybe the blower motor would have failed on its own at some future date, but I believe Sanders and Johnson should provide some reimbursement to me. I would suggest $1,000.

  

  Business response

  12/14/2022

  The customer's description of events and conversations is not accurate.  The varistor internal to the power head of his motor was burned.  This component is a power filter going into the module which powers the motor.  It is the most common part to fail on an ECM motor such as the one the customer has.  There is no way a technician can cause this part to fail.  A technician can cut the leads, but if that happens it is obvious the varistor was cut.  In this case, the customer's varistor was burned to a crisp.  If the customer had chosen to replace his furnace with us we would have deducted the cost of the service call from the price of the furnace and also given him an existing customer discount to boot, however, he chose to work with a competitor instead.  It is also worth noting his furnace was well past the life expectancy of a furnace in a ******** home and there is no record this customer ever performed the annual maintenance required by the manufacturer. 

  Customer response

  12/16/2022

   
  Complaint: 18538709
  
  I am rejecting this response because:  The furnace was working normally when the technician arrived.  It was not working when he was done.  Sanders and Johnson is unable to accept this fact.  A furnace should last at least 15 years, so it may have been borderline, but certainly not well past its expected lifetime.  Looks like we are at an impasse.  All I can do is recommend to anyone reading this...don't use Sanders and Johnson.
  
  Sincerely,
  
  *********************************

*Some consumers may elect to not publish the details of their complaints, some complaints may not meet BBB's standards for publication, or BBB may display a portion of complaints when a high volume is received for a particular business. ↩