ComplaintsforUpstate Paving LLC

• Initial Complaint

  11/25/2022

  Complaint Type:

  Service or Repair Issues

  Status:

  Resolved

  More info

  Upstate paving of Auburn, NY installed a topcoat over a binder that they admitted was poorly done in the first place. The topcoat started cracking all along the edges within the first three months after installation. I contacted the job superintendent with pictures and stated that I thought my driveway would last longer than three months, he said, “so did I, I will fix it”. After pursuing him, he finally showed up 9 months later unannounced and drizzled squiggly lines of crack filler into some of the cracks until I saw him and demanded that he stop. That was supposed to be the fix for my new driveway with excessive cracks up my driveway edges. I called the owner and set up a meeting at my house only to be persistently talked over and the problem areas ignored by both the owner and the superintendent. They explained that if I had curbing that the cracking would have never happened. I wondered if he was joking or being serious, “this is my home driveway, who has curbing on their driveway”, I asked. Then they moved onto tell me I should have more fill against the edges of my driveway during which I kept trying to tell them the areas that were cracking had soil almost to the top of the driveway. It all ended with both of them intentionally talking over me and refusing to look at the cracks. They said they would give me the name and numbers of some reputable driveway sealing companies and that was the end of the meeting. The other issues are #1 the hump in my driveway where they were supposed to initially build up over a sewer line with fill before binder was laid. They said they were going to rectify the hump this time by building up topcoat over humped area. Once again the hump and cracking has reappeared. #2 they took a large chip out of the edge of my sidewalk. #3 I have all sorts of vegetation growing out through the edges of my asphalt, not in my lawn but through the asphalt itself. #4 The edges of my driveway are extremely crooked and wavy. #5 There are excessive roller marks all over my driveway surface. I really wasn’t going to let them apply the top coat to my driveway because of the runaround they put me through for ten years on the poor binder install and the deceitful work they did on the first binder install, but after many phone calls the superintendent promised me I would be happy, he said that “it isn’t how ya start, it’s how ya finish”. He convinced me to give them another chance to correct the initial poor workmanship, what a mistake. I am seeking complete reimbursement for once again faulty workmanship.

  Business response

  11/30/2022

  We were originally contracted by ******* ****** back in 2009 to do his first course of binder installation of his driveway.  This was completed towards the end of the summer that year.  We recommend to all of our customers to install their topcoat the following year.  We did not hear from him until 2011 when he called us about an issue he was having with this binder.  We went into 2011 and did some minor excavation and reinstall of binder to a small area at no charge.  We did not hear from him again until 8/20/2018 where he called for an estimate for work and stated “I’m not sure what I need done I just want your judgement”.  A few days later we gave him an estimate to remove a section of his binder driveway to adjust the elevation of the sewer pipe and to topcoat his entire driveway.  He never contracted with us to do this work.  The next time we heard from him was in April of 2021 when he requested another estimate from us.  At this time my Superintendent, Tim L*******, went out to meet with him for this estimate.  While he was there, he did notice that he was having some issues with the binder and did state that it looked poor, but at this time he did not realize that the binder was now 12 years old (he just assumed it had been done more recently than that).  At this time we provided him with a discounted price to topcoat his driveway and also agreed to an addendum for additional items at no charge to him (see attached labeled “addendum”).  He said we could not change the elevation of the sewer pipe because the current pitch of that pipe was crucial and had to remain as is. We did all of the paving contracted and per the addendum on 9/28/2021.  He paid us in full on 10/7/2021 for this work.  He also called our office on 10/7/21 and said he had some lawn damage from some of our trucks which we promptly repaired.  He then called our office on 11/29/21 to say he had some cracking at his driveway edges.  It was explained several times that cracking occurs on your driveway edges if the sides of the driveway are not properly backed up with topsoil/lawn.  If there is no backing in place then there is nothing to hold the edging in place when a lawn mower, car or snow plow drives in this area.  He is only having cracking issues along some of his edges.  There is no cracking in the middle of his driveway, nor is there cracking along the edges where he has a wall and there is proper backing installed (I do have several pictures of this but your limit will not let me attach so please let me know how I can provide them to you).  He does take out of context a conversation that was had with him regarding curbing.  While trying to explain to him about needing backing for the edges to hold up it was explained to him that that is the reason some people choose to install curbing and we have installed curbing on residential driveways (especially those as long as his) in the past.  We do not provide landscaping on the edges of driveways that is needed to avoid this and we also do not guarantee or warranty against this which is both clearly stated in the topcoat contract that he signed (attached labeled contract, I highlighted these specific items).  When my Superintendent was there he did install some crackfiller to the larger cracks that he noticed.  This is not a service we provide, but since he was there and does have crackfiller in his truck he did start to close some of the larger cracks up for him so they would not get any worse.   There was never a refusal to look at the cracks as Mr. ****** states, in fact we even took several pictures of them. In the meeting that he mentions on 10/31/22 his topics of concern were addressed and then were also sent in an emailed response back to him on November 11, 2022.  This email response is as follows as it helps answer some of his other concerns he has listed in his complaint: Cracking to your driveway edges - as explained the cracking is happening to the edges in the areas of the driveway where no backing is installed; if there is no backing there is nothing to hold the edging in place when lawn mowers, cars etc drive on these areas.  It was pointed out and noted that the areas that do have backing against the blacktop (around the wall area and against your concrete) does not have cracking.  It is imperative that you install backing against all areas of the driveway.  This is not something that we warranty against, but when Tim L******* originally came out to review your concerns he did install crackfill to some of those cracks for you at no charge.  We specifically note on our contracts, “We do our very best using your existing base to avoid cracking, settling and ponding of water, however this cannot be guaranteed.”  Aside from installing the backing you should also seal your driveway and at that time they can install a crackfiller to the ones that have already formed to protect them from becoming worse.  Sealing is not a service that we perform but there are many reputable companies in our area.  We use ************ out of Geneva if you are looking for a recommendation.  I have attached several pictures that we took of the cracking at the edges which shows no backing and the areas that are not cracking that do have the backing for your reference. Lack of coverage over sewer – our crew did point out to you that the pipe should be lowered to meet the driveway grade and you told them you could not do that because the pitch of that pipe was critical so it needed to stay as is.  We did adequately pave over this which has resulted in a small hump in your paving.  If we added more thickness to this area as you suggested you would have had a very large speed bump like hump and it would have started to effect the grade of your driveway as well. They did say in the meeting you also mentioned that your son was present on paving day and he had told you that we did not shim any of the driveway before we paved.  I have attached an aerial photo for you that shows the shimming that was done prior to the paving, you can clearly see it through the runway and then in front of the garage as well. Crooked edges -  The lines of your driveway look of average driveway straightness.  We are using a paver when installing the blacktop which gives us as best as we can for clean lines especially when dealing with aggregate.  Again by installing backing to your edges this also helps fill in any areas that you may not feel are perfectly straight and are sticking out to you. Tim and Joe said that there was no mention to them in this meeting of chipped concrete or weeds.  The chipped concrete was not shown to us nor do they remember seeing this themselves when they were there, so we are only assuming that it is pretty minor damage?  We apologize for this, but unfortunately we are working with extremely heavy equipment – pavers, rollers, etc – and of course something like this occurring is not intentional by any means, but when you bring this type of equipment over or next to concrete there is always a risk of damage, especially if we are butting the asphalt up to the concrete as was the case with your driveway.  Lastly the weeds – this was also not something that was pointed out to us or seen by them when there were there.  If you are having cracks, especially at the edges close to your lawn, that does allow space for weeds to move into and start to grow.  Again it is imperative to install backing for no future cracks and to install crackfiller to those that have already formed so the spacing is closed and weeds are not able to penetrate through these areas anymore. The excessive roller marks were never mentioned to us at all, nor were they seen during our meeting, nor can I see in all the pictures that we have took of the driveway.  I do notice that he has only supplied one picture of his driveway with his complaints which doesn’t really support his concerns.  I have attached an aerial of shimming completion and also of final paving completed.   I do have another 15-20 photos of his driveway that we have taken but I am unable to upload because of the BBB limit in my response.  If you would like to see those please let me know with instructions on how I can send them to you. To sum up my response – as you can see, we have been more than responsive to Mr. ****** and have given him quite a bit at no charge to him even though it was his decision to wait 12 years to install his topcoat over his binder.  We do stand behind our work and guarantee our workmanship and feel we have been more than fair with what we have provided and our level of responsiveness, but there are some things that are beyond our responsibility.  We do feel his complete reimbursement is unwarranted.  If you should have any further questions at all or would like any further information please let me know. Thanks, Andrea R***********

  Customer response

  12/02/2022

  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below. The response from Upstate paving avoids and deflects from taking responsibility for the following: # 1 Inadequate grade and fill 5-6" as per original contract. due to the inadequate grade and fill over my sewar line it became an almost immediate issue, a hump and cracking started after initial binder coat. there was less than two inches of fill over my sewar line, I addressed this with Upstate paving very quickly and was told there was nothing they could do. The inadequate fill caused my binder coat to fail and settle at the edges of my driveway also. # 2 Upstate did not meet their obligation to shim areas that needed it most on final coat, they simply drove the paver down the center of my driveway and called that shimming, not even going over the most needed areas. #3  As I stated, the majority of the cracks are where soil is almost even with the top of my driveway that voids the claim by Upstate Paving that there is inadequate driveway edge backing. Many pictures of this were downloaded with the original complaint, #4 I did address plant life growing through my asphalt after topcoat and my complaints were blatantly ignored and avoided by the owner at our meeting, talking over me and ignoring my complaints was a tactic that played out during most of our meeting, it was very frustrating and inconsiderate. #4 I included pictures of my driveway edges that should be proof enough of how incredibly crooked and inconsistent they are. Let the pictures speak for themselves. #5  I included pictures of the large chip that was done by Upstate paving in my sidewalk. The chip was made by a employee prying on existing concrete with a steel bar. It was a reckless mistake and should have been acknowledged and repaired, It is the first thing anyone sees as they approach the entry door. I could go on but I have been allotted only 30 minutes to respond, the topcoat that has so many issues has been caused by a faulty Binder coat, improper grading and fill and poor workmanship. Upstate Paving has not lived up to the contract obligations on Ethier of the contracts. Tim L******* openly admitted that there was many faults and stated that "it's not how you start it is how you finish" he said this with the promise he would make things right, large cracks, plants growing through my asphalt, A hump and cracking over my sewar line and leaving damage to my concrete walkway is not my idea of making things right. VERY unhappy and will pursue this until the end.  Regards, ******* ******  

  Business response

  01/30/2023

  Response taken by phone:  We have to the property numerous times.  We told him not to pay us until he was satisfied.  He waited an entire week until he paid us.  A few months later he noticed the cracking on the edges and we went back again.  The cracks are along the edges where there is not enough backing. The contract does state that there is no guarantee against cracking.  Please provide us with pictures of the areas of concern.

  Customer response

  02/23/2023

  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below. Customer provided several pictures and descriptions - see below and attached:  1. As you can see in these images, the edges are extremely wavy and erratic. (Pictures 1-2). 2. These are pictures that show the poor workmanship from the first Upstate Paving installation. Again, problems started not long after the installation of the first driveway. In the third picture, you can clearly see the lack of fill over my sewer line, which caused an elongated hump in my driveway and eventually the cracking and separating of the asphalt. Furthermore, the pictures can speak for themselves and are why Tim L******* said "I want to make this right... it's not how you start, it's how you finish.". And this is why I gave them a second chance to make it right. (Pictures 3-8). 3. These images show vegetation growing up through the cracks in the edges of the driveway. This will cause the edges to break away. (Pictures 9-12). 4. These images show damage to my concrete walkway. (Pictures 13-14). 5.   These images show areas near where the driveway meets the road. (Pictures 15-17). 6. Attached are pictures showing only a few of the cracks along the edge of my driveway. There are two videos that will not send because of their length, but they show cracks that are between 30 and 40 feet in length. (Pictures 18-22). 7. This is a conversation with Tim L******* of Upstate Paving. I reached out to him on November 29, 2021 (3 months after the driveway was installed) about the cracking. After waiting nine months, and after the cracking had continually gotten worse, I had to persue Tim again about when he would start the repairs. Pictured are the so called repairs that he did without notifying me of when or how he was going to repair them. After confronting Tim about these unacceptable repairs, he offered to leave me a large container of this asphalt liquid to continue repairs myself. (Pictures 23-28).  Regards,  ******* ******  

  Business response

  03/03/2023

  OUR RESPONSE: WAVY AND ERRATIC: The lines of your driveway look of average driveway straightness.  We are using a paver when installing the blacktop which gives us as best as we can for clean lines especially when dealing with aggregate. Again by installing backing to your edges this also helps fill in any areas that you may not feel are perfectly straight and are sticking out to you. EDGES CRACKING: We specifically note on our contracts, “We do our very best using your existing base to avoid cracking, settling and ponding of water, however this cannot be guaranteed.”  Aside from installing the backing you should also seal your driveway and at that time they can install a crackfiller to the ones that have already formed to protect them from becoming worse.  Sealing is not a service that we perform but there are many reputable companies in our area.  You are only experiencing cracking along the edges of your driveway which tends to happen when vehicles drive over this area as there is not enough strength and backing to hold it in place with the weight of heavy vehicles.  POOR WORKMANSHIP: The pictures provided are of a 10 year old binder driveway that never had a topcoat installed the year later which is what we advise.  It also shows your driveway under construction of a rock wall that was installed.  A binder driveway is not rated to have heavy trucks or machinery driven on it which also occurred for this wall installation.  Do you have pictures after the installation of the driveway from 2009 of the poor workmanship?  LACK OF COVERAGE OVER SEWER: Our crew did point out to you that the pipe should be lowered to meet the driveway grade and you told them you could not do that because the pitch of that pipe was critical so it needed to stay as is.  We did adequately pave over this which has resulted in a small hump in your paving.  If we added more thickness to this area as you suggested you would have had a very large speed bump like hump and it would have started to effect the grade of your driveway as well.  The problem arises from the height of this pipe to your driveway grade, without correcting that it limits what we can do.  This was brought to your attention ahead of time. VEGETATION IN CRACKS: This is occurring in the cracks that have formed along your edges that we do not guarantee against.  You can install crackfiller to fill these cracks which will hinder the grass from sprouting.  Grass clippings from lawn mowing sprouts easily in any cracking, but we have never seen grass cause edges to “break away”. CONCRETE DAMAGE: We apologize for this, but unfortunately we are working with extremely heavy equipment – pavers, rollers, etc – and of course something like this occurring is not intentional by any means, but when you bring this type of equipment over or next to concrete there is always a risk of damage, especially if we are butting the asphalt up to the concrete as was the case with your driveway.  

  Business response

  03/08/2023

  BBB spoke to Andrea at business and the following was relayed: As a good faith effort to resolve the issue for the customer, we are willing to have the cracks and edges filled and the driveway sealed at no cost to the customer.

  Customer response

  05/31/2023

  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.  BBB spoke to the customer and the following was relayed: We would agree to having ******** **** & ****** taking of the driveway. This would need to be either the last week of June or the first week of July if possible.   Regards,  ******* ******  

  Business response

  05/31/2023

  I have accepted the contract with ******** **** & **** and they will contact Mr. ****** directly to arrange scheduling.  Right now they said they are running July for timing but will be calling him in July when confirming exact date.  

  Customer response

  05/31/2023

  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and find that this resolution is satisfactory to me.  Regards, ******* ******  

*Some consumers may elect to not publish the details of their complaints, some complaints may not meet BBB's standards for publication, or BBB may display a portion of complaints when a high volume is received for a particular business. ↩