ComplaintsforOn the Bluff Labradors

• Initial Complaint

  02/21/2023

  Complaint Type:

  Product Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  I purchased an English lab July 2022, she started limping 4 weeks later. She was found to have elbow dysplasia/ fragmented Coronoid process which is 100% Hereditary per my orthopedic Veterinarian. I am a member of the social media group , there are several dogs with the same issue , all requiring surgery. This is deceptive breeding as she KNOWS this is an issue and continues to sell these dogs. Please look into this breeder Carla R************* at On The bluff labs in Germantown NY. I spent $3500 for the dog , and now have spent $4000 for the surgery.

  Business response

  03/24/2023

  I apologize for the late response to your email.  I was away for a few weeks and then became ill after I returned.This is the first time we at On The Bluff Labradors, (OTBL) have heard about any physical problem with Ms. *********'s dog, *******.  Ms. *********s also has another dog from On The Bluff Labradors named ****.  She adopted **** at 8 weeks and then decided to adopt another dog, a chocolate Lab she named *******.  We have a training program for puppies here at OTBL and Ms. ********* opted to have ******* enroll in our 2 week board and train program.  She adopted ******* at 12 weeks.We received 3 emails from Ms. *********.  The first 2 were sent on 7/30/2022, exactly 24 hours after she picked up ******* from OTBL. The first email concerned training issues. She said ******* was a beautiful dog, very well tempered, and extremely smart. She said ******* could sit, lie down, and stay and come on command. This is exactly what our pups are trained to do. She was upset however that ******* did not go to the door to let Ms. ********* know she had to go out.This is not a behavior included in our training program and nowhere in our literature or on our website does it say we train pups to do this.Everyone who adopts a trained pup from us is given over an hour of instruction from one of our trainers going over everything the pup has been trained to do and how each owner must continue the training at home in order to keep the puppy trained. The new owner is taught all the hand signals and verbal commands and is asked to perform them with their pup.In the same email, she also complained that ****** was not trained to bells.  I conduct a Zoom meeting with everyone who will be adopting a pup from us and the bells are one of the many things I tell people about and how to train their pups to use them if they choose to do so.  Once again, this is not something that is included in the training program.The afternoon email received on the same day, (7/30/22) complained of a cut on *******'s nose. As we do with all of our customers, we sent a picture to Ms. *********, allowing her to see her new pup.  On the day she picked ******* up, we took a picture of Ms. ********* holding ******* and posted it on our Facebook page. There was no cut on *******'s nose in either picture.  The cut on her nose did not happen here.The third and last email from Ms. ********* was received on August 3rd.  She wanted a refund of the training money.  It states clearly in our contract that training money is not refundable.That was the last time we heard from Ms. *********.We never received an email stating that ******* was limping or having any trouble early on with her elbow.  I would assume Ms. ********* would have taken ******* to the vet at this time to see why she was limping.  We never got any communication that she had done this or any report from any vet that ******* had been examined and what their diagnosis was concerning her elbow.Ms. ********* never contacted us about this problem at all.  Your email to us was the first we heard about it.The Family Forum she is referring to in her complaint to BBB is offered by OTBL on our ******** page and one needs to be invited in.  Only people with our dogs are allowed on the forum ... and their relatives who enjoy looking at photos and videos of our dogs.  There are currently 1300 people signed into the forum and include people with new pups as well as people with 13 and 14 year old dogs. They all share photos and videos and advice and recommendations and sometimes get together for puppy/dog play dates. It is a fun place and everyone seems to enjoy it.On looking into Ms. *********'s complaint, I did find where she went to our family forum site recently to discuss *******'s elbow issue.  One man responded that he thought his dog may have a similar issue.  That is all.  One other person out of 1300.  There were not 10 people in a 3 month period and we can easily prove this to you.Ms. ********* needs to send you, (and us) a copy of her vet's diagnosis of *******.  She also needs to send the x-rays of *******'s elbow.  We would like to see a copy of the bill and be given the vets phone number so that we can speak to him/her about *******. It is imperative that Ms. *********'s name be on the bill as well as *******'s name.The picture she sent of a dog's leg with stitches is not an indication of anything.Once Ms. ********* provides you, (and us) with all the vet bills that concern this issue including the ones from the time she said ******* began to limp early on, along with the x-rays and the vet's name and phone number, we can continue the discussion.Thank you so much for  looking into this matter.   All the Best,Carla R*************(co-owner of OTBL)

  Customer response

  04/11/2023

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  For your reference, details of the offer I reviewed appear below.
  
  I filed the original complaint on 2/21/2023, complaint ID ********, I have just received all the documentation from my Vet. I will attach the medical records and the bill for the CT scan and the corrective surgery. This issue is hereditary and was passed from the breeder. I will also include a copy of the ******** post from the ON the Bluff labs group, the owner is well aware of these issues with several dogs she has sold. She refuses to respond to personal emails. My puppy was diagnosed with CONGENITAL ELBOW DYSPLASIA CHARACTERIZED BY FRAGMENTED LEFT MEDIAL CORONOID PROCESS. A simple google search defines elbow dysplasia as an INHERITED disease. My specialty vet said this is 100% passed on from the breeder. I will attach the bills, I am looking for full payment of CT scan and the surgery. This is a straight forward issue, I will pursue legal means if we can not resolve amicably.
  
  Regards,
  
  ***** *********
  
  
  
  
  

  Business response

  04/20/2023

  We received Ms. *********'s vet report concerning her dog *******'s elbow dysplasia. We thank her for submitting that to the Better Business Bureau of New York..We are so sorry that this has happened.  We did not become breeders 50 years ago to cause people or dogs distress and pain.  We have been pleased over these many decades to provide hundreds of dogs to happy, grateful clients.  Many have come back for a second, third, and fourth dog.  Even Ms. ********* came back for a second dog.  Her first dog, *****, was purchased several months before she purchased *******.  From what she stated in her email - "We are settling in with our beautiful *****. She is already mastering the bell and going outside to potty" - it was this experience that gave Ms. ********* and her wife ********, the confidence to purchase another pup from OTBLPlease understand that this is the first time in over 50 years in business that we have ever had a complaint made to the Better Business Bureau.As responsible breeders we do everything currently available to us to ensure our clients receive the healthiest pups that are scientifically, medically and environmentally possible.To that end -All of our breeding dogs are OFA certified with good to excellent hips and normal/clear elbows.All of our dogs are screened for those diseases that have DNA markers where a mutated gene exists for the condition.  Here are the tests we have screened our breeding dogs for--Centronuclear Myopathy - type 2 - CNM-Congenital Myasthenic Syndrome - CMS-Exercise Induced Collapse - EIC-Hereditary Nasal Parakeratosis - HNPK-Macular Corneal Dystrophy - MCD-Progressive Retinal Atrophy- PRA-Retinal Dysplasia - RD-Copper Toxicosis (Labrador Retriever Type) ATP7AThere is NO known genetic marker or DNA test for elbow dysplasia.DNA information informs our breeding.  If we have dogs that are carriers of one condition or another, we never breed them to another carrier.  A dam and sire that carry the same DNA marker should not be bred together.  If a dog is at risk/affected, we do not breed them at all as they can pass the condition on.  It takes 2 parents who are carriers of a mutated gene to pass that on to puppies.  It does not matter if one parent or the other are carriers.  Is this 100%?  No.  There will be exceptions. There is a 1/10th of 1% margin of error.Some context on *******'s condition-*******'s specific form of elbow dysplasia (ED) as diagnosed is (FCP).  This is a particular kind of elbow dysplasia which is defined as a defect of one of the coronoid processes, (2 small bony protrusions on the end of the elbow).Over the years there have been many studies on ED. The gold standard regarding its hereditary factors can be found in, "The Veterinary Journal - Volume 185, Issue 2, August 2010 - entitled "Fragmented Coronoid Process in the Dog: A Heritable Disease."Twenty four researchers studied 5,406 dogs with elbow dysplasia - 68 were Labrador Retrievers with FCP.Their Conclusion:"The mode of inheritance of FCP is still unclear, although many patterns of inheritance have been ruled out (Guthrie and Pidduck, 1990, Studdert et al, 1991) A radiographic investigation of the elbow joints of complete litters of Labrador Retrievers failed to demonstrate an autosomal dominant trait or (gene). This from the Sirius Veterinary Orthopedic Center sums up what current specialists agree to - "A variety of factors can contribute to the development of the condition, (FCP). In some cases, it may be due to genetics.  In other cases, forelimb fractures or growth plate injuries can occur, causing the underlying condition.  In still other situations, the growth of cartilage, trauma to the area, and even a pet's diet, can play a role in the development of this condition."Finally, there is not enough conclusive data linking genetics as the sole cause of ED.Conversely, there are too many variables to indicate other contributing factors.That is why we DO NOT guarantee for elbows.Our Puppy Contract - which Ms. ******** signed - states clearly in the F section: "Puppy is guaranteed against genetic hip dysplasia for one year from purchase. Only hereditary hip dysplasia is guaranteed." It is in bold in the contract as it is here. We would be glad to submit Ms. ********'s signed contract upon request.Being a breeder is an exceedingly difficult, human endeavor. We have made every attempt and have used every scientific tool currently available to breeders to create the healthiest puppies possible.  Unfortunately, it will never be 100%.  Puppies and dogs, like humans, are alive.  Humans control maybe 20% of the process. Nature controls the rest. Nature is in charge.Sincerely,Carla R*************Co-owner of On The Bluff Labradors

  Customer response

  04/27/2023

  The documents I provided from the specialty orthopedic Veterinarian were clear, this is passed on from the breeder. This is a congenital issue, there are numerous dogs from this breeder that all had the same elbow dysplasia. 
  On the bluff Labradors is aware this is an issue with numerous dogs from her litters. 
  ‘This is negligent and should have been disclosed. 
  ‘Carla is well aware of ll the issues these dogs are having as she runs the social media group.  
  I am still asking for her to cover the costs of the surgery, an AKC certified breeder knows very well what conditions are passed from the parents. 
  ‘The AKC paperwork guarantees hips, Carla is aware of hereditary conditions. 
  I will not stop until I am reimbursed. 
  
  

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