ComplaintsforMasse Group

• Initial Complaint

  08/31/2021

  Complaint Type:

  Order Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  Homeowners Michaela Menard and Ed O'Brien engaged the Masse Group in the spring of 2020 to paint our house. Our total budget for this project was initially $6800 and we have since invested $9300. This level investment is not reflected in the quality of work or business conduct we have experienced with the Masse Group. We have tried resolving the outstanding matter with the business but stopped receiving responses from the business owner, Dan Masse, in May 2021. Given we have not heard from Dan in over 3 months, we are seeking the assistance of the BBB to help us resolve this matter and determine a path toward remediation. Attached is the timeline of our overall engagement to date, including key milestones and communication points. We've also included the initial paint contract and carpentry contract as well as photos for reference. We are not seeking any reimbursement, we just want the job to be corrected and finished.

  Business response

  09/04/2021

  Project was completed in a timely manner.

  All products used were based upon a *************************** paints rep **** he wrote.

  It was determined by an independent *************************** paint ****ialist that water is getting behind the substrate causing areas to bubble.

  We have had zero complaints on any other projects in our entire time as a company.

  We have been paid zero $0 for any of the work done (not even a deposit was paid). No money exchanged for any work or materials.

  Contract was $6800 has cost me well over $12,000 at this time.

  Have sent my guys back over 4 times. 

  Job had no problems until after severe rain storm. It went the entire winter with no issues, Hevay rain in the spring then customers sees bubbling(it went over 6 month without any issues) rain/water as determined by independent paint ****ialist got behind the shingles and they bubbled. 

  Proper, products used, proper prep done, 4x went back to resolve any issue, no money paid out zero. Determined not to be a paint or prep issue but water getting behind the shingles and causing paint to fail. Not a painting related problem.

  Customer response

  09/15/2021

  Better Business Bureau:I have reviewed the response submitted by the business and have determined that the response does not satisfy or resolve my issues and/or concerns in reference to complaint # ********. Please add your rejection comments below; if you do not provide any details, your complaint will be closed as Answered. 

  ---

  The homeowners' (herein Consumer) response to the business is below and attached. 

  Business Response: Project was completed in a timely manner.
  Consumer Response:

  - The job was estimated to take 5-6 days per email on March 18, 2020
  - The job began on May 19, 2020 and was deemed complete on October 27, 2020
  - The job took 5 months, not 5 days, due to poor quality work by the initial Savage team and the need to find a new ********* during the peak summer season.
  - Please refer to back attached timeline for breakdown of events.
  

  Business Response: All products used were based upon a *************************** paints rep **** he wrote.

  Consumer Response: OK
  

  Business Response: It was determined by an independent *************************** paint ****ialist that water is getting behind the substrate causing areas to bubble.
  Consumer Response:

  - The *************************** ****ialist (with whom *** has a professional relationship as BM sales) showed up to our house without our knowledge and looked at 3 sides of the house he did not go around to the back where the majority of the damage is. Given the ****ialist did not alert the homeowners of his visit nor speak with them to talk through the issues or ask for access to the back of the house, we believe the evaluation provided is unreliable as it is based on an incomplete assessment.
  - During the initial consultation, select areas of the home were identified by *** as needing to be repaired and homeowners agreed to use the ********* recommended by Dans team for an additional cost of $1,140. The work done by this ********* was extremely poor and needed to be redone. At the same time, multiple areas of the house began peeling paint less than a week after initial application due to poor prep work, poor repairs (bondo would be applied over cracks and nail holes and then immediately painted without sanding or allowing for it to dry) and generally damaged shingles and clapboards. Wanting to ensure no further repairs would be needed or peeling would occur, homeowners agreed to repair and replace whatever needed to be using money owed to ***, at Dans suggestion. The homeowners also agreed to fund any areas beyond what Masse Group committed to repairing in the quote, to make sure everything was fully up to par in order to mitigate further peeling or damage.
  - The damaged areas in question were not identified at any point during our conversations or walkthroughs as areas of concern and therefore they were left as is. These are also the areas of concern that the initial team painted, without prep, and we were assured if any damage occurred here it would be fixed.
  - The second ********* that came to the house to repair shingles and clapboard did not call out water getting behind the substrate as a concern when he did his walk-around or while he was working.
  - Homeowners consulted two separate painters and an independent *************************** paint ****ialist to provide their own evaluation of the cause of damage and all three, independent of one another, determined it was due to improper prep work, not water getting behind the substrate. This was shared with Masse Group and aligns with the time at which *** stopped replying to our messages.

  
  Business Response: We have had zero complaints on any other projects in our entire time as a company.
  Consumer Response: That is why we hired Masse Group.
  
  Business Response: We have been paid zero $0 for any of the work done (not even a deposit was paid). No money exchanged for any work or materials.
  Consumer Response:

  - Homeowners paid $9,300 for this project against the agreed upon paint and repair costs. Money went to other contractors to pay for repairs that were caused by Dans team (poor carpentry work, poor repair/prep work, two broken glass panels in sunroom), at the suggestion of *** himself. This is money that would have otherwise gone to ***.
  

  Business Response: Contract was $6800 has cost me well over $12,000 at this time.
  Consumer Response:

  - Contract that was $6,800 for paint with an additional $1,140 agreed upon for repairs through Masse Group contractor, cost the homeowners $9,300 against the agreed upon paint and repair costs, plus additional out of pocket cost for above-and-beyond repair work, and they still have a house the needs to be repainted.
  

  Business Response: Have sent my guys back over 4 times. 
  Consumer Response:

  - ******** that initially worked on the house repeatedly did poor work. This crew was an independent company hired on for the summer, as Masse claims to not subcontract (though the team regularly spoke about their separate company while wearing branded clothing onsite for the other company). Despite their poor quality of work, he continued to send them back to the house to repair their own work, which resulted in more poor-quality work and the need for additional repairs and visits.
  - It was a business decision made by *** to hire this team and continue to send them back to the house knowing their quality of work was not up to his standard nor was it the standard of work we hired for. The result of that decision, and the cost of making it, should not fall back on the homeowners. This team was fired at the end of the initial work on our project, but their work was not fully corrected, just an attempt to patch fix was what already failing.
  

  Business Response: Job had no problems until after severe rain storm. It went the entire winter with no issues, Heavy rain in the spring then customers sees bubbling(it went over 6 month without any issues) rain/water as determined by independent paint ****ialist got behind the shingles and they bubbled. 
  Consumer Response:

  - The homeowners noticed the damage in the spring but cannot determine when the damage first occurred. During the winter we were not out in the yard and along the sides of the house, so the spring was our first opportunity to view with any detail/regularity. We can only determine that the damage occurred within the first 6 months of application.
  - Paint should hold up for longer than 6 months and should withstand all weather. Masse Groups own quote is The Masse Group primarily handles high end residential painting work from ****** to Cape Cod and this requires our products to hold the test of time in these tough *********** elements. Regardless of noticing it in the winter or the very start of spring, this is far from holding the test of time.
  - Again, the second ********* that came to the house to repair shingles and clapboard did not call out water getting behind the substrate as a concern when he did his walk-around or while he was working. Additionally, the homeowners consulted two separate painters and an independent *************************** paint ****ialist to provide their own evaluation of the cause of damage and all three, independent of one another, determined it was due to improper prep work, not water getting behind the substrate. This was shared with Masse Group and aligns with the time at which *** stopped replying to our messages.
  

  Business Response: Proper,products used, proper prep done, 4x went back to resolve any issue, no money paid out zero. Determined not to be a paint or prep issue but water getting behind the shingles and causing paint to fail. Not a painting related problem.

  Consumer Response:

  - Homeowners consulted two separate painters and an independent paint ****ialist to provide their own evaluation of the cause of damage and all three, independent of one another, determined it was due to improper prep work, not water getting behind the substrate. Masse Group stopped replying to our messages when this was shared.

  - Throughout the engagement with the initial crew, the homeowners acted as ******* on the job reviewing work nightly and directing the team as to what needed to be fixed. The issues were never fully resolved by Masse Group and ended with us having to hire an independent contractor to fix what the team had done not/had done poorly. We fixed all areas of concern, went beyond budget to ensure any and all potential carpentry issues were resolved in order to mitigate any further repairs being needed or causing any additional peeling. - - The areas that the initial team painted, and did not have any carpentry requirements, are the areas that are now in question. These are the same areas which voiced our concern about when we saw the initial peeling and which *** agreed to correct if it did end up happening. And these are the same areas which *** signed off on, with no cause for future concern or issue.
  
  
  Businesses and Customers should be civil, courteous and polite in their responses to complaints. It is important to remain professional and productive when participating in the BBB complaint process.
  
  FAQ
  
  Regards,

  Michaela

   

   

  Business response

  09/23/2021

  Job was completed. Items addressed several times.
  
  Cliebt Claims did not see failure for 6 months because were inside of house and never saw the outside.
  
  The *************************** Expert came to the conclusion water was getting behind the substrate and causing substrate to bubble.
  
  
  Zero money exchanged for any labor and materials done on the project.
  
  Made every effort to address any issues and came to the conclusion that its not the labor, or products that were defective.
  
  The paint bubbled as owner claims after sever rain. It was fine for months with no severe rain, then we had one of the wetest spring ******* on record.
  
  Conclusion, water getting behind substrate and forcing paint to bubble. Blistering is the formation of Bubbles in the exterior paint film, resulting from localised loss of adhesion and subsequent lifting of the existing paint film from the underlying surface. This fault is not attributable to the paint or labor itself but rather to the substrate conditions.
  
  When the painted surface is subjected to excessive amounts of moisture it causes the paint film to swell it occur and eventually lose its adhesion to the substrate. This may appear worse during wet weather periods as the blisters fill with water.
  
  This is exactly what was determined from pictures given and walk through.
  
  

  Customer response

  09/30/2021

  Better Business Bureau:I have reviewed the response submitted by the business and have determined that the response does not satisfy or resolve my issues and/or concerns in reference to complaint # ********. Please add your rejection comments below; if you do not provide any details, your complaint will be closed as Answered. 

  Job was completed. Items addressed several times.
  
  Cliebt Claims did not see failure for 6 months because were inside of house and never saw the outside.

  - Seeing failure at 6 months is unacceptable. If we had seen failure earlier, that would be even more unacceptable. Paint should last years, not months. 
  
  The *************************** Expert came to the conclusion water was getting behind the substrate and causing substrate to bubble.

  - The ** expert's conclusion is based on incomplete information as the vast majority of the bubbling occurred on the back side of the house which he did not look at. *** nor the two carpenters that worked on the house ever raised concerns about water getting behind the substrate. If this had been a concern, homeowners would have made the necessary repairs.
  
  Zero money exchanged for any labor and materials done on the project.

  - Zero money was given to the business, but homeowners still paid well over budgeted/estimated project cost addressing issues caused or disregarded by painters. This includes lack of proper prep work, poor repair work (first ********* left shingles hanging off the house, which had to be replaced; *********** would attempt to fix holes with Bondo and then paint over the wet mud without sanding or letting it dry, therefore leading to peeling), replacing two shattered glass panels in sunroom that resulted from crew stepping on the frame to reach shingles above sunroom. *** made a business decision to allow these issues to go unaddressed or poorly addressed, resulting in the money owed to him (and then some) going to other contractors.
  
  Made every effort to address any issues and came to the conclusion that its not the labor, or products that were defective.

  - Homeowners specifically called out the long-term durability of the paint as a concern when they identified peeling paint within one week of initial application. This was in June of 2020 when the weather was warm and dry. Concerns were voiced to *** who said that there would be no long-term issues but if there were, he would come back to fix it. That is what we are trying to do now. The exact issue we were concerned about has come to fruition and we would like to have it corrected as we were promised it would be. 
  
  The paint bubbled as owner claims after sever rain. It was fine for months with no severe rain, then we had one of the wetest spring ******* on record.

  - Paint should be "fine" for more than 6 months and hold up through severe rain, snow, sleet or any other inclimate weather. This is New England and inclimate weather is a norm, not an anomaly. 
  
  Conclusion, water getting behind substrate and forcing paint to bubble. Blistering is the formation of Bubbles in the exterior paint film, resulting from localised loss of adhesion and subsequent lifting of the existing paint film from the underlying surface. This fault is not attributable to the paint or labor itself but rather to the substrate conditions.

  - Paint first peeled in June 2020, a week after house was painted. This was not due to water getting behind the substrate as it was warm, dry summer weather. *** agreed with homeowners that this should not have happened and stated that if additional peeling happened in the future, he would correct it. 

  - After paint began to peel in June 2020, homeowners and *** walked the property to identify any and all areas that should be repaired or replaced in order to prevent future peeling. The same was done with the second ********* that was hired. Homeowners went above and beyond, repairing and replacing all areas that were damaged or had potential to damage in order to avoid any peeling or other issues with the paint in the future. These areas were later repainted by ***** second crew and the paint is holding up fine. The areas where we are seeing blistering are in areas that have not been replaced or touched since the Savage team initially painted. Because the homeowners replaced all damaged or potentially damaged areas of the house, the conclusion is that the blistering paint is not due to issues with water damage but rather inadequate prep of those areas of the house. The paint literally peels right off the surface of the shingles - the back of the peeled paint is covered in red residue from the old stain due to the fact that the shingles were not prepped/cleaned properly before the paint was applied and therefore resulting in loss of adhesion with the latex paint.

  - The blistering paint is only one of the issues we have experienced. We also have paint peeling along the bottom of shingles. No conclusion was provided as to why that is occuring. 
  
  When the painted surface is subjected to excessive amounts of moisture it causes the paint film to swell it occur and eventually lose its adhesion to the substrate. This may appear worse during wet weather periods as the blisters fill with water.

  
  This is exactly what was determined from pictures given and walk through.
  

  - The ** expert did not look at the areas that experienced significant blistering - those areas are all in the back of the house where he did not go. 

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