ComplaintsforWOW Saddles / Fine Used Saddles

• Initial Complaint

  10/21/2021

  Complaint Type:

  Customer Service Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  I reached out by to the WOW Saddles representative in my area, of which there is only one, in order two get myself and my horses evaluated and fitted for custom-fit saddles. This is the first time I've dealt with custom saddles, and it was an awful experience that ended up with me wasting over half a year and over $6,000 and end up having nothing to show for it. The fitter came out in May and two saddles for two horses were delivered the first weekend of September. With three consecutive follow-up visits in under the first month, we have not been able to get either of the saddles to fit either of the horses for longer than 24 hours, with additional issues on top of that, including significant worsening of back pain for my horses. When first reaching out to WOW Saddles to get a breakdown of saddle specs, they responded in under 24 hours. When I reached out with the first concerns when these saddles were having consistent issues, they've ghosted me. More details but I've been screwed.

  Business response

  02/04/2022

  Business Response /* (1000, 10, 2021/11/23) */ I have chosen to represent this particular brand of saddle as it is the most scientifically ****rmed, humane, adaptable saddle system in existence. I continue to represent this brand after eight years of experience with them due to the consistent positive results I have seen in practice. I work very hard to always do the best I can for my customers, equine and human. Saddle suitability is an almost entirely subjective concept, which is why I insist all my clients test ride options before ordering. May 16, 2021 - Initial test ride day with this customer, where three horses were measured and fitted. Sizing was confirmed scientifically with the fitting gauge and finessed on the animals throughout the demo rides. We found some combinations which horses and rider all enjoyed. Video was taken and provided to the customer for analysis of herself and her three mares in these demos in order to help with decision-making prior to commitment and purchase. My professional opinion was given based on the client's description of needs along with analysis of the test rides and anatomy of each horse. I would like to point out that this is the latest point in the process where one would ordinarily recruit the opinion of one's riding coach or mentor. May 31, 2021 - Two weeks from the initial demo rides my customer finished researching, analyzing and finalizing selections for two saddles with seats and panels but essentially no flaps. The mini flaps were a special accommodation to reduce the final cost of the saddles to about $3600 each including fittings - well below any custom made and fitted English saddle I am aware of. A deposit of 50% was paid according to my straightforward contract and her choices were sealed for entry into the production process. An estimated production time of 10 weeks from the date of order was given to the client. June 2, 2021 - Funds were verified and the order officially entered into my supplier's system in the UK. September 3, 2021 - saddles were received by FUS from England, two weeks later than anticipated after factoring for an annual August closure at the manufacturers' in the UK along with some minor delays in supply chain and shipping beyond our control.. September 4, 2021 - The two flapless saddles were delivered and fitted to the two horses they were made for and evaluated on the third horse as a courtesy, to advise on which saddle would be best to share. All three horses were footsore to varying degrees from being trimmed the day before, so I had to ask that rides be kept short. That left a bit of an uncomfortable impression on me. The client was pleased with the saddles, happily paying the balance due with no coercion. I had misplaced my silicone sealing gel and would need to return, so I offered out of an abundance of care to wait and return in a couple weeks after the mares' feet had ample time to heal. Then I would re-check and make adjustments as necessary. I remained in regular contact with the buyer and was provided only positive reports during her first weeks with the new saddles including on 9/5/21, 9/7/21, 9/9/21, 9/10/21, 9/18/21 and 9/19/21. On 9/17/21 there was a neutral report in which Chloe had a naughty moment without explanation. September 26, 2021 - I returned as discussed and it was inarguably demonstrated in looking at the saddles and fitting gauge that both horses had already changed shape enough to warrant refitting with narrower headplates. Though Dreamer's back showed a little more curve than on my previous visit, the flat Y-bar still appeared to be appropriate, especially when I asked that she lift her back as if engaged in work. I gave a courtesy re-fit for both horses, changing the tree sizes and recalibrating the panels. During Dreamer's fitting we lost daylight and I agree from everything reported and shown along with photos that I likely made some mistake in the dark which would be resolved the next week. This is also the day the customer first mentioned she felt like Chloe's saddle's seat was too small. That feeling was able to be improved a little by correcting the fit and thus the balance. It is important to note that the length of back Chloe has to support a saddle is incredibly short - such as what a 16" saddle typically covers. I cannot in good conscience fit an 18" seat on this horse in any saddle, as being too long will cause harm. That a saddle should not exert pressures beyond the last rib is supported by numerous saddle fitting research papers and the rules of the Society of Master Saddlers. The best solution was to place the rider in a more open style of size 1 (17") seat with size 0 (16") length of panels supporting it on the horse. September 27, 2021 - The client had a riding lesson with her old coach who had just come back into the picture and Dreamer was not happy in this ride. I got reports of knots under the skin under the front and back of the saddle afterwards. I began to really question Dreamer's fitting the dark evening previous. We set a date for me to come back. September 28, 2021 - The client lets me know she is now sure both seats are too small and wants to try larger, which I had established previously the horses' backs are not long enough to accommodate. October 3, 2021 - I returned to the client's farm to address concerns, particularly with Dreamer's fit. In the light of day, I was terribly unhappy with the fit. I ultimately determined that a flat tree was no longer suitable for this horse, giving too much pressure at the front and back. The horse's instinct was then to hollow her back away from the saddle, worsening those effects. Since the saddle was so new, I offered to replace the tree/seat at my expense. I loaned the client a demo saddle to evaluate the fit of a slightly larger seat for herself. In this larger saddle we are pushing what is acceptable in length on Dreamer, but a bigger saddle would be unconscionable on Chloe. I used chalk markers to show Chloe's bony markers and tiny weight bearing area exactly suitable for the 16" panel, which can support up to a 17" but not an 18" seat. The client's coach was present and her opinion is that nothing I have to offer is good for this rider, but that the horses did move exceptionally well after I made adjustments. My customer's coach repeatedly recommended brands she uses with $6000 and $8000 price tags, financially out of reach for my customer regardless of suitability. I also loaned my client a Port Lewis impression pad so that she could see objectively even pressure distribution underneath the saddles without having to trust anyone's opinion. I have not been presented with any results from this scientific approach to seeing what is going on under the saddle with the horse moving and a rider up. I have heard very little since this visit, and it is my understanding the saddles had stopped being used completely within a day or two. I have however been forwarded emails my client sent to the manufacturer questioning and insulting my abilities as a saddle fitter vaguely and without basis after also expressing pages of doubt regarding the saddle's entire concept and build, insulting the maker. I returned to the customer's farm 10/24/21 to retrieve my loaned equipment and pick up the saddles for consignment, but she has decided to try selling them on her own. Ultimately, saddles are a very personal item of equipment for a horse and rider and incredibly subjective all around - especially with regards to the rider. My opinion of what is suitable for the rider and possible on the horse differing from another professional's does not constitute bad business. The client was able to test ride the same size configurations fit to herself and her horses to evaluate the feel and was given video to evaluate two weeks before choosing to commit to the purchase and every selection made. It was explained that horses caan change quite a bit in the beginning, and to expect it. Horses can change shape very rapidly once going in a saddle that fits well, distributes weight evenly and allows them to move without restriction. It is not unusual to have a flurry of change cycling in the beginning with these saddles as horses settle into them and find their new posture. As put by mutually admired equine anatomy and biomechanics expert, Gillian H., "It is often under-appreciated just how much a horse's back changes shape. It changes shape with each stride the horse takes and on a daily basis. However, it also changes shape over time with the seasons, with variations in workload, muscle development and tone and alterations in posture." POSTURE. I have no control over how the horses are changing shape, but I am able to track and demonstrate when a horse has in fact changed and make appropriate changes to the saddles. I feel I have been generous and accommodating throughout this process, going above and beyond my side of the agreement trying to satisfy. My contract is clear that your custom saddle is something I as an authorized fitter have commissioned and purchased for you. Orders are final because the pieces are bespoke. I've worked extensively trying to find a solution to make everyone happy, including a highly opinionated trainer who was very late to the discussion and hates everything I have on offer. I know the situation *****. It ***** quite a bit for me as well. My contract does indicate a 25% consignment fee taken if you decide to sell your saddles through me. I would be willing to sell these saddles without taking a commission, remitting my client all proceeds minus direct expenses and fitting fees. Consumer Response /* (3000, 12, 2021/12/06) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) Since upon opening the complaint with the request description being limited to so many characters, I will still include a more appropriate detailed customer experience in this report to appropriately reflect upon the transaction and difficulty in this experience (full report as the attached document labeled WOW Saddle Customer Experience - this text response will be shorter as there is still a character limit on this response). And I do appreciate WOW saddles finally getting back to me and I do appreciate the fitter also responding back with a potential solution in trying to address the issue (even if both responses were only after I filed this complaint in the first place). Please see the end of the report for my response to that. As I keep extensive documentation and records on all rides and activities that my horses do, of which the WOW saddle fitter herself has borrowed some of those records for her response, I will also detail the experiences with these saddles as well as the expectation versus what the actual result was on the deliverable. Both custom saddles for two horses failed. I was very clear from the start that I needed reliable saddles that could be jumped in, and that we do a lot of trail riding over varying terrain, as well as the expected flatwork that any saddle should be expected to provide support with. Both of these saddles failed on all aspects. And to the point about posture, yes it is important for the horse to have good posture but it is also extremely difficult to achieve with ill-fitting tack, especially when the saddle is changing too much in a short period of time. If it was one problem horse I would consider that, but with the fact that I purchased two custom saddles for two horses, with the note that one or both saddles at different points were also claimed to fit my third horse as well at first. However, both saddles were unable to be fitted as the configurations needed to be changed with every visit after another problem was recognized. All three horses displayed behavioral problems during this period of trying the new saddles, and all three of my horses have given clear signs that they were in discomfort (some more than others). And while I also did consider trying wool panels instead of the FLAIR panels (as my horses have made it clear that they hate the instability of air panels), I was way too concerned about there being no support on the front of the saddles with the Y-bar design of the tree and seat, with evidence which has been consistent across all rides with all horses since the saddles were delivered and through multiple configuration changes. These saddles were having consistent issues that by the time of the canter work in a basic flatwork session, all of the pressure from the saddle with the added weight of the rider was pushed to the front of the saddle while the back of the saddle was moving too much. The corresponding back pain localized along the withers and the lower back where the panels ended was consistent across all three horses during this time and has already been improved with bodywork and not using these saddles since the discovery. I have also had WOW representatives attempt to tell me that the weather temperature and humidity of the air cannot affect the fit of the saddles with FLAIR as the panels are heated by the heat of the horse's back. However, one cannot dispute the physics of how air works in hot and cold temperatures, especially when there are consistent issues of the saddles finally seeming to fit on one day at a specific time with a specific weather condition but then have trouble fitting 24-48 hours later right after the latest saddle configuration updates by the fitter. The actual results say otherwise. I also used the impression pads that the saddle fitter personally let me use to let me test how these saddles distribute weight and pressure on the horse during a ride, both of which rides with updated saddles were consistent that all of the pressure ended up at the front of the saddles by the time of the canter work. It also observed that there was way too much pressure on the front of the saddle with doing a set of 4 raised trot poles, let alone to imagine landing a jump (which we did not get to evaluating because of how quickly issues arose with these saddles and having too much concern for the welfare of the horse to experiment with that). Upon a voice call with the representative in Florida, she made it clear over the phone that while yes, it is possible to jump in FLAIR panels, they are not supportive enough as air moves too much upon landing the fence and that you really need more supportive foam panels for jumping. And then there is the manner in the fact that the saddles were too small for me as a rider that would pitch me forward, applying even more pressure to the front of these saddles. The fitter was adamant that these horses could not fit any larger saddles, but I believe the failure here is the sizing system of the WOW saddles as 0, 1, 2... Typical English saddles will range from 14" to 19" depending on what you're looking for. All of these horses have been easily cleared to fit 17.5" saddles, which I fit perfectly fine, by multiple people including my latest saddle fitter. I have no intentions of putting an 18" or bigger saddle on the horses in question (although one of them could take it but there's no need), but the fact that out of all of the options that WOW saddle provides there appears to be a lack of reasonable seat length options. All horses have also ridden in 17.5" saddles over the years without issues, although those saddles from the past are now retired which prompted the saddle fit journey that led to this mess. And yes, I should have had my coach and advocates out earlier and from the beginning as that was naïve on my part, but I also was under the impression that a saddle fitter would be an advocate for me both as a rider and as an owner, a saddle fitter being an advocate for the horses. However, I only got an advocate for the brand out of this transaction and proved my mistrust of brand-specific saddle fitters as they are incentivized to sell brand products. And to address the saddle fitter claiming that my current coach is trying to push a certain brand of saddle that is out of my price range, this is a completely inaccurate claim as my coach was merely comparing her own custom-saddle fitting customer experience with a different saddle company that runs about the same price range as a full-flapped WOW saddle, with the different result that her delivered saddle still fits her horse even with slight adjustments over time and is a reliable and satisfactory saddle for her purposes. My coach is not pushing me to obtain any specific brand as she believes each horse is different, and my current saddle fitter has provided me a range of brands and styles to keep searching for, all unique to my different horses. My coach has already helped me in evaluating several saddles, all under or around the $1,000 range for a reasonable saddle. It is also important to highlight the fact that my coach runs her own lesson barn and works with many horses, some of which even in rescue and rehabilitation, and is much more experienced in observing ill and proper fitting saddles which is why she is advocating for me. And to address the lack of concerned communication from my part as a customer, I did express initial concerns upon the one horse's nuclear ride early on after the delivery of the saddles, and continued to record the experiences in an online record that the saddle fitter had access to for the entire duration while the saddles were in use. By the second follow-up with the saddle fitter, my concerns had already been growing, along with my doubts on the saddles working out which is what prompted me to reach out in the first place for other opinions, receiving both a separate WOW perspective and a non-WOW perspective. Upon reaching out for other opinions, all were consistent in concurring that there were issues visible based off the ****rmation and video that I was sending them. By the last follow-up, I had my current coach out to advocate while sending basic saddle fitting questions in relation to how WOW saddles were similar and different in advance to the saddle fitter but the answers were still struggled to articulate during the follow-up meeting. And despite knowing that there were many concerns towards the end of the saddle-use duration, the saddle fitter did not reach out once about how the latest changes were holding up. I purchased new saddles with the expectation of being able to do proper flatwork (including raised pole work), along with the expectation that the saddles could be jumped in and be reliable for trail riding purposes as that is a big activity that we do. But most of all I was expecting these saddles to be reliable, and that yes if we needed to get different parts swapped out then we can change things out as needed but I wasn't expecting to change things out on a daily basis within 24 hours to the point that we had to make entirely new saddles within 10 rides, which is entirely unrealistic and unreliable. I have already purchased a saddle for one of the horses for a fraction of the cost from a reputable consignment store that offers a 7-day trial, of which we did and the saddle stayed fitting reliably during the trial and continues to stay fitting now several weeks into owning the saddle unlike the custom brand new WOW saddles that I had received. Do I expect this newly purchased used saddle to fit her perfectly next July when she's more in shape than she is currently? Most likely not, but we will address it as needed with regular saddle fit checks and evaluations, as well as shimmable pads where they can be beneficial. Now, I am open to letting the WOW saddle fitter consign the saddles that I have and taking her up on her offer of negating the consignment fee of 25% but I have a major concern regarding that consignment contract with the fact that there is no deadline, as the way it is written the saddles can take up to 10 years to be sold. That's not to say to rush the sale of the saddles but I would require a contract to have a 90-day deadline on it which would either return the saddles at no charge if not sold within 90 days or have the option to renew the contract, as there needs to be an incentive to sell the saddles within a reasonable time frame. There is also the concern that if these saddles were unable to be fitted to my horses within 30 days, how they will be fitted and resold to another local in the area if they also have fitting issues. I'm not sure if the saddle fitter works with her network in shipping saddles among a variety of fitters or if she is selling consigned saddles locally. One of the saddles was already with the fitter for a few weeks upon the mention of having a potential client but to no result in the end before I took the saddle back to list it privately. I also brought up consigned saddles and used saddle parts during the first trial in May and the question was all but stepped over and forgotten saying there are not really used quantity despite the online market I see for private sales, as a seller's incentive would be to sell new over used. Again, I'm not trying to be mean but I am trying to illustrate how as a customer this has been a stressful and horrible experience ever since the delivery of the saddles, not to mention the numerous months wasted during the interim of not having saddles when I should've simply purchased used and had this solved in June instead of still dealing with this in December. WOW Saddles has all of the talk but unfortunately I have not seen any of the promised results. I can go into far more details of every ride if needed, however I believe that would possibly be overkill compared to what I've already described thus far among this text response and the a Business Response /* (4000, 17, 2021/12/17) */ ****@wowsaddles.com 3:07 AM (6 hours ago) to me Hi Lisa, Thank you for your comments. Your service is obviously excellent but would you question Ford Cars or Mercedes on how they design and develop their products. It is insulting you question a saddlery product that leads the world and has won innovation awards and always excels when pressure tested against other brands. The retailer has spent a fortune in travel and time on numerous visits trying to help this customer who is led by professionals that have no saddlery training but makes their money trying to teach the complainant amongst others to ride.. The complainant has presented lame horses for fitting and not listened to the retailer, refusing to buy the style of product recommended by the retailer. Instead she purchased parts that were specifically not recommended and then other parts second hand from third parties. The retailer should not have sold to her in the first place but wanted to help her. Riders take differing seat sizes depending on the brand as differing brands fit differently and size differently according to style which affects the geometry of how the rider is positioned in the saddle. I appreciate you have set up the web site to help consumers but you appear to simply wish to attack retailers and brands without sufficient knowledge to know if you are being severely misled by the consumer. This demeans greatly what you do- which is sad. We have responded reasonably without showing the complainant up for her inaccuracies and lack of equine knowledge. The retailer has been very careful to be "reasonable" and also to try and resolve the situation but the complainant is obviously encouraged by others to destroy people and their business instead. Maggie W. Maggie W. Finance Director Consumer Response /* (4200, 19, 2021/12/19) */ (The consumer indicated he/she DID NOT accept the response from the business.) I'm not sure how I am supposed to respond to this since clearly WOW Saddles does not care to resolve the concerns that I have already addressed in my previous response and has now completely changed tactics to attack the Better Business Bureau and to not respond to anything that I raised concerns about with my actual experience. The Better Business Bureau serves to protect consumers from bad products and bad business models, such as a lack of customer support on issues with their products and is especially relevant for transparency with cases like mine considering that WOW Saddles has a reputation with horrible customer support among the online Facebook groups when it comes to actually having a problem with their products. I responded in a reasonable manner with detailed records about my concerning experience and issues across multiple accounts with multiple horses, whereas WOW Saddles has repeatedly been attempting to throw blame and play a victim compared to actually attempting to resolve the issue. If the product they are selling has been proven true, then one would expect the brand to do everything they could to address issues when they do not work. Instead, WOW Saddles chooses to slander the customer despite recorded evidence and witnesses to the failure of their products and services in my case with multiple horses. They attempt to discredit my equine knowledge and my horses while the horses in this case have been owned for 15 years and I know them very well and I have a network of experienced equine professionals with whom I work with and have known me and my horses for years and can attest that my horses are sound and suitable for the riding activities in which these saddles were being purchased for. This network includes a certified saddle fitter, multiple veterinarians, multiple coaches (one of which actually uses WOW saddles and her own WOW Saddle Fitter noticed issues early on during my initial concerns when I started reaching out for outside opinions), and a certified equine bodyworker who has already noticed improvements in my horses since I stopped using the WOW Saddles. WOW Saddles also tried to claim that I purchased second-hand products as though the jump and dressage flaps that I purchased used online made any difference in the saddle not fitting, as those are the only two purchases that I made second-hand and I had only ridden in the jump flaps twice during the last week of the evaluations whereas I was previously riding in the newly-purchased miniflaps that came ordered with the saddles. Again, I do not believe that any of the concerns and experiences that I have listed have been unreasonable yet WOW Saddles seems to be having trouble handling this professionally. This case has nothing to do with intentionally trying to destroy businesses but as a customer, I do believe that I was ******* over. Consistent with other clients that I have talked online with, WOW Saddles has fantastic customer service when things are working well. Yet everyone I talk with agrees that when there are issues with their products, WOW Saddles has horrible customer service and that has also been my experience. The fact that they didn't even attempt to address any of the concerns and experiences that I have listed here in my previous response should speak volumes to that.

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