ComplaintsforAmerican Poolplayers Association

• Initial Complaint

  02/12/2023

  Complaint Type:

  Service or Repair Issues

  Status:

  Resolved

  More info

  I have an issue with my skill level and the special treatment of other players. I have asked 3 times to be lowered because I am not at the right skill level while other players that are lower skill levels are not accurately adjusted. I have a win percentage of *****% in 8 ball and I have requested to be adjusted accurately and it has fallen on death ears. I have been denied once with a response and have not been responded to the other 2 times I have asked for skill level adjustment. I also recently played ******************************* who is a 2 and had a break and run and high win percentage but she is a consistent 2 without adjustment. One of my team members expressed there concerns and they denied her the right to have her voice heard and was completely railroaded from the topic. I feel like certain members get special treatment because they play more then once a week as I am currently playing. I do not think its right to have special treatment just because I don't play as much as other players. So I am exoculating to get some answers and have my skill level properly adjusted. This is a very frustrating topic because obviously I am not getting fair and equal treatment.

  Business response

  02/24/2023

  We can let ****** know that the Local APA ************* has filed the appropriate paperwork to have his 8-Ball skill level reviewed for consideration of lowering. This appeal will be reviewed next week.

  Customer response

  02/25/2023

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and find that this resolution is satisfactory to me.
  
  Sincerely,
  
  *******************************

• Initial Complaint

  08/05/2022

  Complaint Type:

  Customer Service Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  I run a tavern that’s hosts a variety of events APA being one of them. We’ve had issues with outside teams while they are in our establishment and have tried to resolve this with the league operator. We decided to switch from a travel league to an in-house league with just our teams. The operator was not interested so we looked for another league that could accommodate us. We found *** and decided to start our in-house league at the end of the current session (roughly 8 weeks). We gave the league operator plenty of notice as a professional courtesy since it wasn’t an APA issue but a player issue. We got a phone call from a league operator threatening us and trying to discredit the *** and their league operator. We were told that if we chose to engage in business with *** and end our relationship with the APA that they “would have to do what they had to and I wouldn’t like it” at the end of the conversation we agreed that we would finish out the session as planned but within a few days all of the matches were scheduled to exclude my venue without asking or even notifying the teams being moved. I was the captain of 2 teams one of which was in first place. Both teams were deleted from the league without notice. We’ve payed in advance for the entire session. Today we got a check for the unplayed weeks. They kept our money for weeks that we played and put it towards a prize that we are no longer in contention for. The league operator sent out an email to players strategically excluding anyone who may have loyalty to our venue falsely accusing us of trying to recruit their players and claiming that they had to abruptly move all teams to other locations and ban us from participating to save their league. We only spoke to players that used us as their home since they are/were our teams not the APAs. We had no interest in the other teams or we would have kept things as they were. They removed customers and moved them to private clubs that they weren’t members of.

  Business response

  08/31/2022

   

  ******* contacted our office on 7/28/22 regarding a complaint against his League Operators, **** and ******* *****.  The next three paragraphs cover his position with some additional context.

   

  APA Support Services Employee ******** ****** contacted ******* on 7/29/22. *** ***** is an APA Host Location owner. There are private clubs, and there are a lot of non-members of the clubs that are allowed to player in those locations. *** ***** asked the APA League Operator (**** and ******* *****) to make the other clubs enforce the rules that only club members can be in their locations.

  He was told that they could not make the other Host Locations do that as they do not have the authority. *** ***** then asked the League Operator if they could set up an in-house division. The League Operator declined that request as is their right as business owners in deciding where and when they wish to focus new areas of development. As a result, *** ***** contacted the competitive *** pool league and arranged to start an in-house division with that competing league. *** ***** notified the APA League Operator that at the end of the current session they were going to switch league play from APA to ***. *** ***** states it was at this time that the APA League Operator came back to him and offered to start an APA in-house division. *** ***** told the APA League Operator that it was too late, he was moving forward with the *** in-house division. *** ***** indicated that the APA League Operator made the decision at that time to pull all of the teams from this division from his location and re-locate them for the remained of the current session.

   

  *** ***** stated that he prepaid for both of his teams for the whole session. *** ***** would like a refund of the fees for the weeks that paid for in advance. *** ***** is disappointed because one of his teams was in first place for the session and was undefeated. He stated that he loves shooting APA and wanted to retain APA in his location but the League Operator did not give him any other choice and he now has an agreement with the *** league.

   

  After learning of this, ***** ***** (APA Consultant) spoke with League Operator, ******* ***** on July 29, 2022.  The next several paragraphs cover the position of the APA Franchisee in the area that *** ***** is complaining about.

   

  League Operator, ******* *****, told *** ***** that she could not tell her social clubs how to operate their businesses. This is a decision based solely on how they want to handle membership.

  ******* asked over 2 years ago about inhouse leagues. ******* did not specifically say ‘no’ to the idea but let ******* know that in the 20+ years they have been operating the Maine APA, they have never successfully had an inhouse league, just travel divisions.

   

  During COVID all of the social clubs were closed and *** *****’s location remained open. At that time, *** ***** hosted all of the APA teams from other locations so he was used to the revenue the monopoly of teams was giving him. When the social clubs reopened, the teams went back to their pre-COVID locations. League Operator, ****, followed up with *** ***** recently and let him know they would be willing to try an inhouse but ******* already had his mind set on hosting *** leagues. There was opportunity for *** to play on one of the other nights that they do not have play (Wednesday) but *** ***** insisted that they remove APA out of his location on Thursday night and he was going to move to ***. During this time, the *** league organizer, as well as *** *****, have been actively attempting to recruit the Thursday night APA players to *** which is a clear conflict of interest for our franchisee. **** warned *** ***** that if he didn’t stop soliciting his players, that he would remove his teams prior to the session ending. He gave him two weeks to think about it and to change his actions. He continued this practice, posted in numerous ** groups (******** ***** **** *******) and was spreading lies that the APA was kicking the teams out to the APA players while they were playing in his location. **** and ******* made the decision to remove the players/teams from the location at that time. ******* was on two of the teams that they decided to relocate. They did not want to play at another location so both teams will be dropped and a BYE will be created in two divisions. League Operator, ******* will be refunding *** ***** for the weeks that have not been played via check. She will be mailing this to him on Monday, 8/1/22.

   

  Thanks,

   

  **** *************

  Chief Financial Officer

• Initial Complaint

  07/29/2022

  Complaint Type:

  Billing Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  I am currently an active APA member playing on an active team in Tri-Cities APA and this complaint is NOT ABOUT TRI-CITIES APA. EAST TENNESSEE APA is unfairly charging myself and 3 otger members of the team, a fee for our whole team quitting the middle of SUMMER 2021. LO is only charging the 4 of us that left his division, 3 members were not charged EVER. I have written proof from them that they were not charged Our team was FORCED TO QUIT BY PLAY TIME CHANGE. Before summer we advised that our team would not sign up if the time was earlier than 7pm because of work Per East TN Bylaws league time 7pm on weekdays. After 5 weeks, the LO allowed the HOST owner to change time to 530pm IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SESSION. I have copies of the texts about the time change. The unfair time change caused other issues between our members & Host ONLY AFTER we quit we got banned from location. National told me LO is right to charge only 4 out of 7 of us for being forced to quit by LO not following APA rules or his Bi-Laws. LO offered to wave the fees we "owed him" if we played in another one of his divisions which is an hour plus drive from us. A year later he found out we were playing in Tri-cities and played a full session and started a second before he threatened to suspend us if we dont pay. He knew the first session and did not say anything to us. LO does not follow APA rules often bends them for personal gain, like paying a session in one division with only 3 teams. APA RULES APPLY TO LO TOO. If APA argues the rules are the rules ALL 7 members should've been suspended until paid per rule book but only 4 were. Also why is the fee waived if we had come to play in his other division but not in a closer league area?? APA should hold the same standards for everyone. We tried to do the right thing They tricked us bc they needed the 4th team to keep session going. APA needs to fix this and not let LO charge only some members for an issue HE CREATED. APA should value players!!!

  Business response

  08/31/2022

  ******** contacted out office on 7/15/22 regarding a complaint against her ****** ********* **** ********

   

  ******** ****** ********* ******** on 7/15/22. Ms. ****** stated that the APA League Operator told her that he would be moving the start time for her division(s) to 5 PM. Ms. ****** said that she told the League Operator that if the time changed, they would not be able to shoot. She and her teammates work and could not make it there at that time. Ms. ****** said that the League Operator did not change the start time. Fast forward 5 weeks and they were notified by the APA League Operator that the start time was changing to 5 PM. The APA Official Team Manual states, “A team that drops out during a session will be required to pay all past dues, the balance of all dues they would have owed had they completed the session, and two weeks’ fee deposit (which will be applied to the final weeks of the session) before they would be allowed to rejoin the League.” (OTM page 28, Concerning Teams That Drop Out)

   

  The League Operator told Ms. ******’s team if the shot in another division (which was an hour away) that they would not have to pay the remainder of the session fees owed. Ms. ******’s team said they could not do that. Ms. ****** and a few other players switched to a neighboring APA League are to play. She claims that the APA League Operator, Mr. ******** called the neighboring League Operator to let them know that these players owe him money and that he will suspend them until the money is paid. Ms. ****** doesn’t feel that it’s fair that she has to pay the fees since the start time was changed weeks after the start of the session.

   

  ******** ****** spoke with the APA League Operator, **** ******** on 7/18/22.

   

  The League Operator, Mr. ******** stated that Ms. ****** was kicked out of a Host Location because she started a bunch of drama. Ms. ****** was upset about being kicked out from the Host Location and dropped her team as a result. Mr. ******* states that he has screenshots of her saying that she would pay the fees that are owed. Mr. ******* said she is responsible for $160.00. Mr. ******* said that this happened last year and she is only calling the APA Corporate Office because he sent her a message asking of the money that she previously agreed to pay. Mr. ******* told her that she had 30 days to pay it or he would take action. If the amount is not paid, Mr. ******* will mark her suspended so that she cannot play in another APA League area until the money is paid in full.

  ******** ****** spoke with Ms. ****** again on 7/18/22 after speaking with Mr. *******.

   

  ******** said that the she feels that the Host Location owner changed the start time, not the League Operator but because she is friend the with League Operator, he lets her do what she wants. She changed the time before July 15, 2021

   

  Thanks,

   

  **** *************

  Chief Financial Officer

   

  American Poolplayers Association, Inc.

  1000 Lake Saint Louis Blvd., Ste 325

  Lake Saint Louis, MO 63367

  636-625-8611 x5360

  Customer response

  09/01/2022

  ********** ********
  I am rejecting this response because: Everything you just stated is a complete and total LIE! Provided only to make yourself look better. As I sent full proof of screenshots to ******** ******. OUR TEAM COULDN'T PLAY BECAUSE THE LEAGUE OPERATOR CHANGED THE TIME. We were not kicked out of the host location for stately a bunch of drama. The ONLY part of that statement that is true is that I got banned from the host location AFTER, AND ONLY AFTER the time was changed and our team had to drop out. And the reason I was banned is because the host location owner was mad that I went to the league operator and complained about the league operator changing the time of the session. I have 8 witnesses on my team and 16 other witnesses from 2 of the 4 teams that played out of that location that all told the league operator the same thing, which is that our team told the host location and the league operator we were not signing up to play summer 2021 with a start time of 5pm. And so they kept the time at 7pm since they only had 3 teams left without us. And then when they changed the time 5 weeks in we told them that was unfair and we couldn't play and THAT made the host owner mad because that left her with 3 teams only,  which you cannot pay league without 4 teams,  so she threw a tantrum and because we couldn't quit it jobs and play at 5pm during the week like she wanted I got banned. After that I provided an accurate business review on the host locations business page and we never went back. That is the"drama" the APA lies about. The only reason,  REPEAT ONLY REASON we dropped is because we could not make it to play at 5pm during the week. Also another flat out lie is that I owed $160. I paid the "fee" he said I owed last week antidote and I owed $36.40 and my husband also owed $36.40. For a total payment of 72.80, have proof of the check for that too. AND another lie because **** ******* NEVER reached out to me about 
  Paying any fees once I was playing in a new league area. He refused to take my calls or provide information on how to make the payment he was demanding. I have messages from me and my new league operator and from my new league operator to **** because **** only contacted him and wouldn't tell me how to make the payment. But the old host owner that screwed us and **** ******* contacted our new host location trying to get us kicked out of there too because he's mad that we left his league area. Why doesn't the APA National Office care about their members and allow league operators to Bully and harass players that leave their area? I have a SIGNED STATEMENT from exactly 27 people that played in East Tennessee APA that left and refuse to play in his league area anymore for the very fact that he doesn't follow the rules and does whatever he wants and APA allows him to do that. And as far as the Host location for Surgoinsville Tennessee, she's in Bed with **** ******* so of course they lie. And Apa national office flat out ignores VALID EVIDENCE PROVIDED TO THEM.  More that their entire response was based solely of "Bill ******* says this and says that, **** ******* says he has screenshots that I agreed to pay the money" where is this proof? Also why not actually look at the proof I provided or contact the people I provided. Find out very hard to believe that 24 people that were playing league in summer 2021 are all lying and the only person telling the truth would be the league operator??? That's the APA national offices stance on the situation?? Lie to cover your own lack of care for the APA players that make up the leagues.
  
  
  Sincerely,
  ******** ******

  Customer response

  09/22/2022

  09/22/2022: This company has not resolved this dispute, they owe a refund of $72.00  to cover what I paid for both my husband and I.

  Business response

  10/05/2022

  10/05/2022: Mediator left a detailed voicemail for the business. (*****)

  Business response

  10/10/2022

  10/07/2022: my name is ****** ********* I'm director of franchise operations at the American pool player Association. I think you just left a voicemail for a ***** **** at our office yesterday concerning a complaint from a lady named *** ******. So anyway, when you get this if you can give me a buzz back my cell is ************ and I just kinda wanted to talk through whatever you need. So we can get this matter resolved look forward to hearing back from you.

• Initial Complaint

  11/18/2021

  Complaint Type:

  Service or Repair Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  I feel like the APA is a scam to take peoples money There was a tournament in Columbus Ohio a state tournament for Ohio only we register a team of eight people on a team their operators in Columbus cheated us out of the tournaments they lowered two of our guys ratings before the tournaments started Which was not allowed. which we have the paperwork that says thst he was a four move h down to a three before the tournaments start and then also we had a six they move to 5 before the tournaments started which that should not be allowed. then myself I was a four I lost one match and I won one match and they automatically raise me 5 Then we had a four they had to play twos and barely won and they raised him at the end of the event to disqualify us they raise all of our players on the team So they can disqualify us and keep the money for their self which is a scam they ripped us we should’ve won 2500 for one in the tournament we got $550 in expenses for hotels and all the money we spent down there and food quarters for the table And I will be going down there file a lawsuit on my part to Columbus operators and who ran the tournament This was a scam before we got in town to rip us off

  Business response

  11/30/2021

  Thank you for the opportunity to clarify and explain our position on this matter. 
  
  Mr. ****** recently participated on team 44101, also known as ‘******* ****’ at the Ohio State Regional Tournament.  Mr. *******’s team was in fact disqualified from the Ohio State Regional Tournament for excessive Skill level movement.  The skill level movement was based on his performance and the performance of his teammates, through scoring done via APA’s proprietary software system The Equalizer®, as well as observations of highly skilled players who watched their match play.  
  
  As outlined on page 81 of APA’s Official Team Manual https://media.poolplayers.com/TMRB/Team-Manual-English.pdf:
  
  “APA Is The Highest authority In order to preserve the fairness and integrity of its Championships, APA reserves the right to disqualify any player(s) and/or team(s) if:
  
  a. The certification packet submitted by the player/team appears to have been altered or contains irregularities that might give a player or team an unfair advantage.
  b. Any member of the team is participating at a skill level lower than their true playing ability.
  c. Any fraudulent circumstances of any nature are found to exist.
  d. A player or team’s sportsmanship or conduct is deemed by APA to discredit the Tournament, the League or the sport.
  
  The determination of whether a player is participating at a skill level below their true ability is necessarily subjective. APA is the sole judge of a player’s ability and may make such a determination in its absolute judgment and discretion. Disqualification will result in forfeiture of all titles, awards and prize money as well as a minimum two-year suspension from the League. APA is the highest authority concerning all Tournament rulings. Its decisions are final.”
  
  Simply put, several members of Mr. *******’s team was participating below their true ability, and we could not allow them to continue in the event.   We certainly take no satisfaction in having to removing Mr. ******’s team, however we are ultimately responsible for the integrity of such events, and allowing a blatantly under-ranked team to advance with such excessive skill level movement is unfair to the properly handicapped teams. 
  
  In regard to the prize money Mr. ******* alleges was kept, these allegations are simply not true.   The Tournament Director who ran the Ohio state Tournament split the prize money with all teams eliminated from the event by Mr. *******’s team, as is our protocol.  In this way, we can lessen the unfortunate experience they all had in participating against a team who was intentionally/knowingly playing below their true ability in order to gain an unfair advantage.
  
  We hope this helps to explain the situation. If you need any additional elaborations, please let us know.
  
  

*Some consumers may elect to not publish the details of their complaints, some complaints may not meet BBB's standards for publication, or BBB may display a portion of complaints when a high volume is received for a particular business. ↩