Complaints

• Initial Complaint

  05/12/2024

  Complaint Type:

  Service or Repair Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  We signed a contract with Big Sky Builder of Kalispell, *********************** to extend our south ************ and carport with covered walkway onto the front of our house. Construction began end of June 2023. End of August, the south extension began to sag and the deck wobbled when walked on. ******** structural advisor at Sliters in Bigfork assessed the posts, beams, and joists. He determined the posts, beams, and joints were in undersized. ***** and met with our son, *********************** and ******** to discuss the results and decide on a solution.The deck needed to be removed.The 2X6 joists under the deck removed, replaced with 2X10s. Pier blocks replaced by sonnet tubes with Bigfoots.Additional sonnet tubes installed to support the joists under the deck and additional posts to hold the roof.4X4 posts replaced with 6X6 posts, additional 6X6 posts installed.Beams holding roof on extension to be replaced.Bracing installed to so roof would not fail in winter.***** sent his workers they removed the decking, saving the trex, dismantled the 2X6 joists, helped to brace structure. ***** poured new and additional sonnet tubes with Bigfoots, replaced the 4X4 posts with 6X6 posts.This spring ***** began corrections on just the east facing front of the house. Two corner posts holding roof noticeably sank through the winter, 3/4 of an inch and 2 inches, so he replaced both with new sonnet tubes with Bigfoots. Re-leveled roof. At completion of phase one, we sent ***** a bill for the materials and labor. He said we were responsible to reach him prior to repairs, so he refused to pay. He now claims no responsibility for any structural deficiencies to our project at all saying he built everything exceeding code. If so, why did he send his people out to remove the deck, take the 2X6s, and help brace the structure for winter?We are out thousands of additional dollars with more to go. There are more pictures if you need them. We do not expect a full refund just payment for repairs.

  Business response

  05/13/2024

  To Whom it may concern,
  We do not agree with ***** and ******************** complaint that the project was not built to withstand the areas snow load. Pursuant to ******* law the minimum design roof snow load after allowed reductions shall be 30 PSF. ******************************************************************* and the project was built well above the state minimum with a roof snow load of 77 PSF.
  The project was built to comply with Montana building codes *********************************************************** All wood used was in compliance with Section R317 all fasteners and connecters were in compliance with Section R317.3 and Table R507.2.3
  Attached you will find a diagram from the City of Kalispell, Montanas building department which lays out the requirements for decking. Sono tubes are to be 36 inches minimum below grade,as you can see in Mrs. ******* photos the Sono tubes were well beyond the minimum and reached 42 inches and included a footing. There was one Sono tube that was 32 inches, which ***************** was aware of, due to a power line running through the project this Sono tube had to be 32 inches. Ive also attached an email confirmation from ***************** stating she did not want reimbursement for adding Bigfoots or any change to the beam size. My company purchased and paid for 6x6s to replace the existing 4x4s, receipt attached. The remaining changes were all requested by her son ***********************. As a professional courtesy we began to make the changes. I reached out to ****** son ***** several times to coordinate helping with their changes and received no response, which I reiterated to *****. Text message correspondence can be submitted upon request.
  Please also note in Mrs. ******* complaint she states I met with ******** from Sliters which is not true I have never met with ******* and we do not use hardware/lumber employees to make decisions on projects as Sliters does not have any structural engineers or advisors. We work with the engineers we purchase trusses from. Attached are truss plans used on this project that were engineered for this project by Builders First Source Wall and Truss Plant,contact information is ********************* ************, the direct contact for the engineer is ************
  I have also included the information from the ****************** and Labor and Industry on how snow load is determined. *******************************************************************
  For areas outside of certified city,county and town jurisdiction ground snow load information can be obtained in the following ways:
  Use of the "Montana Ground Snow Load Finder" or
  Use the "**** 7 Hazard Tool" as an alternate option or
  Contact the State Building Codes for ground snow loads
  According to the **** Hazard tool the required ground snow load for 3250 Foothill Rd Kalispell MT, ***** is 84lb/ft this should not be confused with the roof snow load. Please see below snow load details,photo attached as well.
  Ground Snow Load, pg
  84 lb/ft2 
  20-year MRI Value, pg
  53.76 lb/ft2 
  Winter Wind Parameter, W2
  0.35
  Mapped Elevation
  3423.0 ft
  Data Source
  ****/SEI 7-22, Figures 7.6-1 and 7.6-2 A-D
  In conclusion we do not agree to a $103,000 refund to Mr. and *****************. We agree to refund the amount of $150 for the sono tube that was 32 inches and $50 labor to replace it. As we have already paid the difference on upgrading the 4x4s to 4x6s and there will be no further refund offered for this change.

  Customer response

  05/22/2024

   
  Complaint: 21701276
  
  I am rejecting this response because: When *****'s company started the project they hired a concrete company to pour the sonnet tubes ***** wanted for the project .They installed 6 sonnet tubes for this part of the project and 4 additional sonnet tubes for future projects. Though they were all *****", but none of them had the required bigfoot shown in the attachment ***** sent. We had to dig them out and replace all the concrete they poured as it sank leaving the roof un-level. We are standing by our letter to ***** and do not require he pay for ADDITIONAL sonnet tubes with a bigfoot to replace the pier blocks he used, but he should have to pay for the sonnet tubes he had poured that did NOT have a bigfoot or simply refund the entire concrete bill.  We should also be refunded for all pier blocks which he used that had to be replaced with sonnet tubes. 

  We have no problem with the engineering of the trusses. What we are concerned about are the beams and posts ***** installed to hold the trusses. The beams and posts are what do not meet our snow load requirements. I thought ***** was at the meeting with the people from *******. However, that does not change the fact he met with us and our son *********************** the end of last summer. He verbally acknowledged and accepted the responsibility to replace the beams, posts to bring it up to our snow load requirements. That required the deck be removed, bracing of the roof so the posts could be removed, and a proper sonnet tubes with a bigfoot installed, the beams on the east and west sides of the patio replaced with larger beams, then rebuild the deck. He sent his employees out to help demo the deck and brace the roof to ensure it made it through the winter. He would not have done that if he did not hold responsibility for making the corrections.

  ***** claims he tried to contact ***** several times, but no emails or texts were received from him. We received no emails or texts either. 

  We have no expectation to get a full refund of $103,000, that would not be right or fair. What we are asking is full refund for all concrete work approximately $3500, pier blocks $200, 2 beams to that attach to the house and hold the trusses on the south side of the house $800, replacement 2X10s and beams holding the deck (*****'s employees took the 2X6s) $1500 and labor costs of $8000 for a total of $14,000. He can save on the labor if ***** himself works with *****.

  
  Sincerely,
  
  *******************************

  Customer response

  05/22/2024

  Sirs:
  Last summer my cousin, a licensed Architect visited us. When she saw the size of the beams and posts, she questioned if they would hold our snow load. She took her concerns to ***** (our son). As a result, we called Sliters. Since they sell the beams and posts, they have on staff an employee who will go to job sites, measure distance and slope of the roof then go back to the office, put those measurements into a software similar to the one engineers use, along with our physical address. The program takes into consideration our location when figuring the load snow and generates recommend sizes for the posts and beams. It is our understanding, they come very close to what an engineer would recommendation for posts and beams. The ******** employee came the end of last summer and took the measurements.
  ***** used a 3 X 12 beam across the front from north to south. The computer program determined the beam should have 5 x 12. Trying to come up with a less difficult correction, it was decided if we used more 6 x 6 posts we could make the smaller beam work as long as the pier blocks were removed and sonnet tubes with bigfoot were installed to hold the posts. We have done this part of the corrections and that section has been completed.
  The second area of concern are the beams in the attached pictures and we have not begun any corrections. ***** simply matched the beam sized at 3 x 12 that held the original part of the roof and added a new beam. However, the original span is much shorter than the new span. The computer program determined we actually need a 5 1/8 X 19 1/2" beam  and extra 6 X 6 posts to hold up the roof. In order to fix this, walls will need to be built to hold the roof up while the inferior sonnet tubes are removed and sonnet tubes on a Bigfoot installed. Then the post re-installed. Then the 3 x 12 beam must be removed and a new beam installed. (If necessary we will hire an engineer to verify this. The added cost will be $2000-3000). 
  The final area of concern deck. ***** used 2 x 6 joist. The span was too great and the entire floor wobbled when a large group walked on it. We already installed additional sonnet tubes with bigfoot to hold additional under support for the floor. But when rebuilt the joist must be 2 x 10s.
  We do not want to ******************* or his company. That is why we asked him to work with our son ***** in the corrections. We felt ***** could learn from ***** and he would be a more experienced ********* when the project is completed and hopefully avoid this kind of situation in the future. He is not a bad *********, just inexperienced in doing our kind of project.
  We are at this point because there has been a lack of communication and we simply need to get this completed. But we do not feel we can allow ***** to do the corrections without oversight. Our son, *********************** is a skilled ********* with 15+ years experience. The reason we did not have him build our project is he was working full time and building his own house. He simply did not have time. Now however, we have turned the entire project over to him to see to it things are brought up to our snow load and done correctly. 
  Again, we simply want to be made whole with a building that will not crash on our heads in the winter and will be a sturdy building for many years to come.

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