Complaints

• Initial Complaint

  08/21/2023

  Complaint Type:

  Product Issues

  Status:

  Answered

  More info

  Joel's Floor coverings installed luxury vinyl plank in my home on January 10, 2022 costing $12,139.19. There were parts that were noticeably uneven so we had them come back in April, 2022 to pull up the floor in the worst spots, apply self leveler, then put flooring back down, which was an additional $1,996.63. In August 2023 there was noticeable cupping in the planks and even some of them were cracked and popping in places. I notified Joel's and they sent their floor inspector out who said the floor was installed too tight and there was moisture under the flooring. I did not receive a copy of this report. I reached out to the manufacturer, *****, about the Resolve Plus Longpine 4.5 LVP and they advised me to inquire with the installer about how it was installed. I also discovered this product had been discontinued. I contacted the owner at Joel's who disagreed that the flooring was installed too tight and stated the reason it was warping because there was moisture under the floor. I asked him if the required 1.6 mil vapor barrier would have been placed in the kitchen when installed would this have happened? His response was he had been doing this for years and has not ran into this problem when installing over existing vinyl floor. A certified flooring inspector came to inspect my floor and concluded the planks lack the manufacturer's required expansion space at the vertical surfaces, the manufacturer's required expansion joints for the size and transitions in the doorways were not installed per manufacturer's instructions , the reported moisture issue was not observed by the certified floor inspector, and the product was not acclimated upon installation. The certified floor inspector found a manufacturing defect in the flooring that caused the cupping, however, the defected flooring was installed improperly by Joel's, thus voiding any manufacturer warranty or refund.

  Business response

  08/21/2023

  Upon Mrs. *********'s call, we did send out one of our guys with 50 years of flooring experience to go out inspect the issue. Upon his initial inspection, he noticed flooring was cupping in the kitchen, powder room and dinette. He performed a moisture test on the flooring in the affect areas and the moisture readings were at 16%. He checked in the unaffected areas of the house, and they read 12%. He then removed the quarter round to inspect for correct gapping and then removed a portion of the flooring in the affected area and noticed the the concrete slab was saturated which our guy pointed out to Mr. *********. He then performed a moisture reading the moisture readings were topping out at 98%. There were two small spots where the manufacturer required gap did not exist, however it is the inherit nature of vinyl planking with excessive moisture levels such as this, to expand precipitously and diminish the quarter inch gap that was there. If indeed a floor was cut without this manufacturer gap, it would not cup, it would actually crown/buckle due to being cut to tight. 

  After our guys inspection, I reached out to Mrs. ********* about the moisture advising here to have someone come in and look at that, and she acknowledged on the phone that she suspected the moisture issue was coming from an irrigation system that was installed after flooring had been installed and that she has shut it off. This was her assumption and not ours. We still have no idea if that is the main source of excessive moisture or if it could be from other water sources. We had recommended her having a general contractor to come out and look and she said her uncle was one and that she would have him come out. To our knowledge, he hasn't been out yet.

  I did explain that we would have to replace the flooring and that there would be a charge since it wasn't a warranty issue which she was initially ok with.

  I then explained that the material she had purchased had changed slightly in the overall thickness and the locking system since she had purchased it which happens all the time with manufacturers. So therefore we would have to replace the whole rooms of the affected areas and use transitions up against the old flooring. Then she seemed to question as to why this wouldn't be a warrantable repair which I then explained again as due to the excessive moisture penetrating through the old vinyl that was serving as a moisture barrier. She then stated she was trying to sell the house and get it on the market. 

  As far as the acclimation before installation, this product does not require that since it is a stone core product. I am surprised that her flooring inspector did not know something that simple and well known in this industry, which makes us question the validity of his whole inspection. She reached out to our inspector about his report and he asked for her to have the inspector call him during his inspection so that he could talk to him and make him aware if some of the issues and he never did so. And we haven't even been able to see his inspection that was performed last week or talk to him. And she hasn't spoken with us since the inspection either. 

  And the charge for when we came back to completely level the floors after the initial installation, that was done at cost. They also asked us to replace the quarter round with a stained quarter round instead of pulling and rehanging the quarter round that had just been installed during that time. And the floors were level within manufacturer's specs, they just requested the leveling due to hearing hollow sounds in some boards throughout the house.  

  I would also say that if this was a manufacturing defect or issue, i would expect it to be through the whole house and/or though other homes that we have installed this material in. It is one of our most popular products that we've installed in many homes with no issues at all. The only affected areas in the house are ones with excessive moisture.

  Customer response

  08/22/2023

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint. 
  It is the flooring expert’s responsibility to advise homeowners of potential problems before any job is done. When the floor was initially done, we were not consulted on the vinyl flooring or the leveling issues. When discussing this with Alec, he said his guys did not look for that and we would have had to get leveling devices/lasers/strings throughout the house to ensure it is level. Why wasn’t this done? Moreover, manufacturer instructions (found starting on page 12 of floor inspection report that was emailed to the Better Business Bureau) say to lay the luxury vinyl plank on a flat surface. There are some areas that are not level by up to ¼ inch. If we would have been made aware before installation, we would have told them to make sure it is level, to pull the old kitchen vinyl up, pour self-leveler in the uneven spots, and put 6.5 vapor barrier throughout the entire home. No head superintendent came to the home to inspect before or during the installation. I am convinced that this is an installation-related issue that could have been avoided if the sub floor had been properly prepared. 
  If the floor would have been installed properly with 6.5 vapor barrier and over a flat surface. it would not be cupping, cracking, and popping. Who puts flooring down over 30-year-old vinyl and expect it to mitigate moisture coming up through the foundation?There are no leaks as no wood in or around the house is showing evidence of this. Concrete is porous and soaks water beneath it up like a sponge no matter where the water comes from albeit rain or irrigation. This is why contractors lay down plastic before pouring the concrete foundation. However, in 1990 I doubt this was done as I do not think it became code until after this home was built. 
  I have been researching other companies around the area and it looks like this is not the only complaint related to improper preparation of sub-flooring and it being laid over existing vinyl (see attached screen shot). 
  
  Regards,
  
  ****** **********

  Business response

  08/24/2023

  I have attached the report from our inspector as well as an email from the regional sales director stating that the sheet vinyl that we left down is in fact acceptable as a vapor barrier. 

  As far as consulting on leveling issues when floors were initially installed, we were subcontracted through an engineer contractor that you guys hired for a renovation. We were hired to install floors. if there were any major leveling issues ( which there was not ) then there should have been something noticed before we even got there. We do not bring in leveling devices, lasers or strings to our jobs because it is not required. If there are noticeable humps or dips we can apply a floor patch or leveler in those areas that help maintain the 5/16th over 8 feet tolerance required by the manufacturer. But for the scope of work you were expecting in leveling of your floors to be solid involving these lasers and such things, it would have costed well over $5000 to have your floors 100% completely flat and level. Those types of structural changes are above the scope of services we offer. Something of that magnitude should have gone through the general contractor. But your issue at this time is not a floor leveling issue. It is moisture issue. A moisture issue that was not present at the time of the install. This moisture issue did not arise until well after our install was done and did not occur until after your irrigation system was installed. Once my inspector showed Mr. ********** the moisture on top of the sheet vinyl, he then mentioned the irrigation system had recently been installed and possibly had been installed to close to the slab. When i spoke to Mrs. ********** on the phone, she also acknowledge the moisture issue and stated she had eliminated that issue by cutting off the irrigation system. Both acknowledged the moisture issue as the cause and only seemed surprised after i stated that it wouldn't be a warranty issue and there would be a charge to replace it that then they became convinced it was an installer error.

  As stated previously here and in our inspector's report, cupping is a sign of moisture issues and not a issue of leveling of floor. 

  I do understand the frustration that this is happening and i do sympathize. However, I can not make this a warranty claim when this is beyond the scope of warranty and installation. Everything we did was within manufacturer specifications at the time of install.  

   

  Customer response

  08/27/2023

  Better Business Bureau:
  Please see pictures sent to BBB via email. We pulled up the flooring where the cupping occurred. Where is the vapor barrier? If there was a vapor barrier this would have prevented the defect (along with avoiding installing it too tight). We had another installer come yesterday who took one correct guess at who the company was that did this botched job. I am curious to see what the rest of the flooring is like when the plank is pulled up throughout. 
  
  Regards,
  
  ****** **********

  Business response

  08/28/2023

  In these photos provided by the customer, there is clearly a moisture barrier shown as the sheet vinyl is evident in the picture. The previous screen shot of an email from the manufacturer states that is an acceptable moisture barrier. Also evident in these photos show floor patch/leveler over that moisture barrier which shows that we did also level the floors. So therefore it shows leveling and moisture barrier in the area of issue which shows that it is not a manufacturer nor installation issue. It is again an unfortunate event where moisture is coming in over the moisture barrier from a suspected irrigation system installed after the fact. 

  This flooring was installed in January of 2022 while the business was under the ownership of **** ******. **** sold this business as an assets only sale to Tobias M***** in January 2023. Mrs. ********** didn't call with a complaint about the flooring cupping until the very end of July 2023. If indeed it was an installation issue, problems would have arised much sooner than a year and a half after the installation. 

  I again state that I do sympathize with the customer, but this is not a warrantable repair as it is not a manufacturer or installation issue. 

   

  Customer response

  08/29/2023

  Better Business Bureau:
  
  I have reviewed the response made by the business in reference to complaint ID ********, and have determined that this does not resolve my complaint.  

  
  Regards,
  
  ****** **********

*Some consumers may elect to not publish the details of their complaints, some complaints may not meet BBB's standards for publication, or BBB may display a portion of complaints when a high volume is received for a particular business. ↩